can anyone give me more info about this palo? it sounds to me like a variation of solea.
can i just use solea falsetas and chord progressions?
what makes a cana a cana? i notice this progression a lot during the ay's, ay's: E F G E E F G E
what can i play for basic compas? and for escobilla? and what's a macho?
NormanKliman -> RE: cana? (May 20 2010 22:00:20)
quote:
can i just use solea falsetas and chord progressions?
Yes, especially things that sound old-fashioned. I prefer that word over "classic," because it's better to leave the more "Arabic-sounding" stuff for soleá. Just my preference, there are no rules.
quote:
what makes a cana a cana?
As always, the singing. Listen to soleá and caña with the letras written out you'll notice differences in the melody and the letra. Polo is very similar to caña.
quote:
what can i play for basic compas? and for escobilla? and what's a macho?
Play soleá when there's no singing. Macho is a bigger and badder cante used as an ending. For caña and polo, the macho is usually some kind of soleá, often a soleá apolá. A really good one is the style attributed to Enrique Ortega.
The main thing is to know beforehand whether or not the ay-ay-ay part is going to be rhythmic, free or handled in some special way.
Anders Eliasson -> RE: cana? (May 21 2010 0:30:18)
Well, I wouldnt say that you can use solea chord progressions. When there´s singing, Caña has its own chord progression, which I havent met in any soleá until now. There are also different versions of la caña. Also notice that there can be 3, 4 or 6 ay´s
A standard Caña singer is Rafael Romero He has at least 2 different versions.
It will be more correct to say that Soleá is a variation of La Caña than visa versa. La Caña is considered to be older than Soleá.
Ricardo -> RE: cana? (May 21 2010 6:58:55)
quote:
It will be more correct to say that Soleá is a variation of La Caña than visa versa. La Caña is considered to be older than Soleá.
I have heard that too. But after learning more melodies, I come to the conclusion that the relationship between the two is very small. Only the compas they share. To me the caña polo, liviana, serrana, etc, are "songs" that at some point must have stolen the compas guitarwise from Solea and siguriya and evolved that special phrasing. (Similar to the Fandangos sung to solea compas that was popular for while).
Perhaps the melodies are older then solea or siguiriyas, but to me don't sound like they are melodic precurssors. They sound more lyrical like Rondenas, verdiales, malaguenas etc, rather then modal like solea and siguiriyas. But they for sure are not fandangos type songs as some many other special cantes are. Again just my impression and theory.
Anyway, yeah you play solea falsetas mostly, and solea or solea por bulerias compas, but por Arriba because of the melody range. The key will be lower for the same singer that sings solea. Maybe a whole step or more (2 frets at least, maybe more).
Playing for baile you might do the first letra slower, more like solea, the 2nd one faster like solxbul, and the macho, as buleria. The chords are not really the same as solea except for Am in the beginning and the F-E resolution. In the middle, you will notice you stay on G for a long time (couple of compases), answering the singer 2x with D7-G.
The end of each letra has a "lament" were just a vowel is sung...y....ah.....or something I can't remember but is specific one time vs the other. That part is either "free" or with a weird 7 beat compas 2x then back to normal 6s. (EFGF EEE remate) etc.
For fasletas, for baile anyway there are a couple standards. Something like PDL is famous for ending his solea with in the 70s that starts in C major and sounds like Alegrias at first, that he added blazing picado to. Then there is a faster bulerias type falseta, again usually for foot work.
The macho por bulerias usually starts out with a big C major chord.
Anyway check out Oscar Herrero's accomp vid for solea. They also do Cana and polo if remember correct. not sure if he shows you those falsetas.
Ricardo
at_leo_87 -> RE: cana? (May 21 2010 10:07:59)
thanks guys! that's a lot of good information. now time to just dive into. i'm sure i'll be back with more questions. [:D]
i think i'll be safe playing solea and spb compas for dance but i'd like to find out some of the chord progressions so things don't get stale and i guess to sound more authentic.
Anders Eliasson -> RE: cana? (May 21 2010 23:38:38)
You could use Oscar Herreros chord progressions por Caña,
I learnt them and they never served me anything. Here, where I am, the singers mostly sing one of the versions that Rafael Romero did. Here you have one with Perico del Lunar, which in my opinion is always worth listening to.
at_leo_87 -> RE: cana? (May 22 2010 5:38:43)
ole! thanks for posting that anders. the pieces are slowly coming together.
Exitao -> RE: cana? (May 22 2010 12:10:41)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
You could use Oscar Herreros chord progressions por Caña,
I learnt them and they never served me anything. Here, where I am, the singers mostly sing one of the versions that Rafael Romero did. Here you have one with Perico del Lunar, which in my opinion is always worth listening to.
Thanks for the video link. I was amazed at how good the sound was and I quite liked both those artists.
mrMagenta -> RE: cana? (May 22 2010 15:07:12)
I love pericos playing in this video. thanks for highlighting it.
devilhand -> RE: cana? (Mar. 18 2022 20:50:44)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson
You could use Oscar Herreros chord progressions por Caña,
I learnt them and they never served me anything. Here, where I am, the singers mostly sing one of the versions that Rafael Romero did. Here you have one with Perico del Lunar, which in my opinion is always worth listening to.
Is the tocaor Perico del Lunar hijo? Looks like he doesn't use thumb rest stroke, which is very unusual.
Again, one can see it more clearly in this video.
Morante -> RE: cana? (Mar. 19 2022 12:02:34)
quote:
That part is either "free" or with a weird 7 beat compas 2x then back to normal 6s. (EFGF EEE remate) etc.
This is directly related to dancers, who want to do a flashy remate. If you listen to someone like Diego Clavel, everything is in compás.
Richard Jernigan -> RE: cana? (Mar. 20 2022 6:04:34)
On my first trip to Spain at age 19, what better introduction to the cante than several evenings with Rafael Romero "El Gallina" and Perico el del Lunar hijo at Zambra in Madrid?
RNJ
Richard Jernigan -> RE: cana? (Mar. 20 2022 6:24:12)
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand Is the tocaor Perico del Lunar hijo? Looks like he doesn't use thumb rest stroke, which is very unusual.
Look again, at for example 2:33 in the Rafael Romero video. You can hear apoyando elsewhere in single note sequences pulgar, even if his right hand is not visible.
In arpegios, where he makes the thumb sound equal to that of the fingers, his thumb stroke is still not the same as classical tirando.
RNJ
devilhand -> RE: cana? (Mar. 20 2022 11:41:13)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Richard Jernigan
quote:
ORIGINAL: devilhand Is the tocaor Perico del Lunar hijo? Looks like he doesn't use thumb rest stroke, which is very unusual.
Look again, at for example 2:33 in the Rafael Romero video. You can hear apoyando elsewhere in single note sequences pulgar, even if his right hand is not visible.
In arpegios, where he makes the thumb sound equal to that of the fingers, his thumb stroke is still not the same as classical tirando.
RNJ
Yes, he does thumb rest strokes during pulgar section. What I was referring to was thumb free strokes during arpegio for example at 1:25-1:35 in the 2nd video. I can't judge whether it looks different than classical tirando. To me more important question is whether it sounds flamenco or classical.
It's suprising because his father come from the school of Jerez. As far as I know Perico del Lunar padre had a long career in Madrid. He must have picked up some non-flamenco stuff there and passed it on to his son.
Morante -> RE: cana? (Mar. 20 2022 13:41:28)
Ricardo -> RE: cana? (Mar. 20 2022 15:44:06)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Morante
Thanks for that. A couple of observations since my last post on this topic was many years ago.
1. The lamento is kept in compas (although the tempo is slowed way down) here by Carrion deliberately by omitting the remate (E major arpeggio like Solea always uses), and replacing it with a single low E bass note. I have been kept in compas by dancers doing something fancier that is also only 1 beat there. (EFG,FE-E, etc).
2. The music that constructs the form actually could work as a Solea structurally if after the G chord cadence the C major cambio was used as the melody drops down to tonic (E). But we don’t play that typically, normally there is two cierres on F-E instead, right before the lamento. This suggests that the music of Cana and Solea probably have the same roots.
3. Due to the above structure musically, and the fact falsetas or llamadas come right after the lamento (or even footwork), we typically think of that whole thing as single letra, and then comes the second one, and then the third is the C major macho (Norman points out Enrique Ortega Solea style which is musically the same). However, and this is huge, the actual LYRICS of the letra are not concluded. That entire structure uses repeated lines of verse such that we are only in the MIDDLE of the letra by the first lamento. That means the second “letra” which is the entire structure performed again, is the REST of the verse of 4 lines. That really makes Caña very very different than Solea conceptually, and it is rarely discussed. Since I now recognize the musical structure as related to Solea, I find that THIS thing with the lyrics is THE main difference between the forms. It is also important to note Siguiriyas does a similar split of the letra (llamadas and falsetas can break it up), and there is that style that mimics the Solea Alcala melodically. Perhaps the three forms are all related by a common ancestor? (The mother form split so Siguiriya and Cana delivered lyrics differently, then later Siguiriya flipped the 12-compas pattern for some reason but Caña retained the original as did Solea).
4. Having said all that, the Eduardo Ocón score shows the piece called “El Polo Gitano, o Flamenco”, which starts out with the Ay ay on the C major that mimics the Enrique Ortega Solea that starts on C major (the final Macho letra), and after the lamento actually shows the Split letra dual structure of Caña. The lamentos are both different, and more similar to what is done in the Serrana (maybe that is exactly what it is?). Anyway, it is clearly the Caña, NOT Polo, which tells me back in the 1800s, the titles of these songs were not what we think of them today. Based on the descriptions in Calderon, I suspect the Solea was hiding out as something listed there and much later the Polo became Caña, and a big etc until things got recorded on wax or vinyl.
5. Diego Clavel has book ended this Caña performance with an opening statement “letra” that explains what he was going to do, then after the 3 part Caña he concludes with Solea.
orsonw -> RE: cana? (Jan. 11 2023 19:47:43)
More of my beginner/amatuer cante analysis.
Caña 4 line letra ABCD. Split into two musically resolved units. lines A and B sung with repeats. typically described as 'letra 1' then lamento/Ays lines C and D sung with repeats. 'letra 2' then lamento/Ays
Macho Solea Apolá
A. Que yo pa ti soy cualquier cosa B. que me ha quitao la volunta C. y lo que ante eran rosas D. son como espinas clava
Macho Quise olvidarme de ti cada vez que lo ententaba yo me sentia morir
BCB.D……C Ay C..A…GFE Ay……….
EFGFE EFGFE EFGF FEGF DEFE Lamento/Ays
Letra lines A,B. D…D..D.DCB. DCBA Que yo pa ti……soy A….A….A…A… cualquier cosa AD.D….D…….AG Ay cualquier cosa D…..D……..CBCBDG que me ha quitao D…D…….DCBCBABAG ue me ha quitao F……GFE la volunta
A rough map of a two line unit Line A: starts on D (vii degree), shifts to A (iv) Line A repeat: D (vii) shifts to G(iii) Line B: starts on D (vii degree), shifts to G (iii) Line B repeat: D (vii) shifts F>E(i )
So called 'Letra 2' Lines BC follow the same pattern.
Guitar accompaniment (cante can also have respiro and multiple line repeats): E> Am D7> G (D7)G F>E
Ricardo -> RE: cana? (Jan. 12 2023 21:56:44)
quote:
Letra lines A,B. D…D..D.DCB. DCBA Que yo pa ti……soy
Good work. The difference between Polo and Caña hinges first on that line of verse… the Polo typically skips the B note and drops from C directly to A. It seems like a small detail, but I realize the Ocón score does in fact show the same detail…so “polo” is a correct description of the song title vs. Caña, as I was thinking earlier. Otherwise, the two songs are pretty much the same to me, but the lamento is also different, and the G cadence is not repeated, so a bit shorter.
orsonw -> RE: cana? (Jan. 14 2023 12:07:19)
I notice you call caña a 'song' rather than a cante. I was curious to study it as people say it is a precursor to solea. In my ignorance caña does feel more like a song to me, or a cante that is treated like a song. Perhaps because of the more formalised overall structure. Perhaps because the guitar accompaniment is more 'harmonic/tonal' and less 'modal'; reminds me of the Manolo Sanlucar argument against using a leading note to the Aminor in solea.
Also the dancers don't seem to have boxed it in like they have with solea. Por baile singers are allowed to sing at tempo, and cante can still lay over the compás more feely. Dancers seem to have influenced the Ays i.e. sometimes por baile Ays done very slow with 7 beats.
(I have an extremely low understanding of music theory, so not sure if I am using 'harmonic/tonal' and 'modal' correctly)
Ricardo -> RE: cana? (Jan. 14 2023 17:44:45)
quote:
ORIGINAL: orsonw
I notice you call caña a 'song' rather than a cante. I was curious to study it as people say it is a precursor to solea. In my ignorance caña does feel more like a song to me, or a cante that is treated like a song. Perhaps because of the more formalised overall structure. Perhaps because the guitar accompaniment is more 'harmonic/tonal' and less 'modal'; reminds me of the Manolo Sanlucar argument against using a leading note to the Aminor in solea.
Also the dancers don't seem to have boxed it in like they have with solea. Por baile singers are allowed to sing at tempo, and cante can still lay over the compás more feely. Dancers seem to have influenced the Ays i.e. sometimes por baile Ays done very slow with 7 beats.
(I have an extremely low understanding of music theory, so not sure if I am using 'harmonic/tonal' and 'modal' correctly)
I have revised my old thinking, that was based on essentially hearing the same letra used over and over and freaking over, by every dance show I had ever done. But when I noticed Morente singing a fandango letra (5 line copla, he in fact axes the final line of verse!) that I was super familiar with in his Caña on Rito y Geografia I realized it is actually appropriate to understand it as a “formal structure”, or musical vessel for ANY letra you want. I pointed this out to a cantaor recently and he was actually surprised, thinking he was only permitted to sing two or three in his life long career and experience. So it is just an evolutionary thing happening where it is considered “old” and therefore classic like a museum piece, and the younger generations are not experimenting with it. Considering polo is so close in structure, I consider both to be two variants of the exact same song form, just like Solea de Alcala vs de Cadiz vs. Jerez.
The macho’s are understood as “apola” styles of solea used to taste as well, and the word “apolá” is referring to “polo” and the relationship as letra plus macho. I used to think it referred to melody but after understanding things like “Soleá Petenera”, etc., I realized the melodic thing was not connecting solea and polo…it is more about the relationship between the polo letra and the appropriate machos. As we see in the Ocón score, polo was a popular term for an unrelated music form….although when I say “unrelated”, that ignores the fact the letras could function interchangeably…and I hypothesize that it was the use of such a letra transported from one form to the other that carried the name along.
