British Petroleum Makes me SICK (Full Version)

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cathulu -> British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 17 2010 19:17:00)

The disinformation coming from those guys in the Gulf of Mexico is shameful. They are in control of the crime scene. They say that it is not important the quantity of oil gushing out. They are using PR stunts to make it sound like they got things under control.

They got cameras down there but no one is allowed to see them except minor clips. No one can see how successful their capping to date has been so far. Other oil companies are not allowed to help or get involved - because maybe they would see how bad BP is.

It is a freaking disaster!

Let independent scientists verify the oil quantities. The Feds should take over and BP should PAY BIG TIME. And they should not get the little people to pay. Make the CORPORATE LEACHES PAY!

I am pissed...



Ron.M -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 1:09:33)

You have really got to listen to public statements VERY carefully these days and analyze each word like a lawyer. It's mostly all PR and spin.

Weeks ago, their very first statement was that, "of course they accept responsibility", and as a very quiet subnote.."but not the blame".
(This immediately alerted my **** radar.[:D])

They knew that their public liability was already capped, so it wasn't going to seriously damage the company no matter what the outcome.

So this statement was good PR, presenting the image of a responsible and trustworthy company.

Then later, away from the public spotlight got their lawyers working on who they could blame.

Another thing to look out for is to watch how Politicians always end statements on an upbeat note. eg...

"We will have to make difficult decisions and tough choices in our dedicated work to turn this country into one of full employment, fair pay for a fair day's work, excellent services for hardworking families, with new hospitals and schools and a first class transport infrastructure".

Note how the first part of the sentence makes it look like THEY are the one's who will have to suffer the pain, not you. [:D]

And notice the lovely little picture they paint at the end, to leave you to contemplate.

In fact Obama himself issued such a statement ending (something like) "until the shores have been cleaned up and the evironment has been returned to it's former natural condition and fishermen, businesses and people have been compensated in full..."

Sort of leaves you with a nice, calm, rosy glow. [:D]

BP is really no worse than the rest of them, it's all just a giant game of chess.

cheers,

Ron



KMMI77 -> [Deleted] (May 18 2010 2:23:03)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 19 2010 20:15:49



Pimientito -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 4:58:50)

I agree, one petrochemical company is no more or less moral than another. In their time most of them have caused greater or lesser degrees of environmental devastation. Admittedly this one is a particularly giant mess but I dont think its a good idea to specifically Target BP. The oil industry as a whole have a lot to answer for. Remember when Texaco accidentally turned Lake Peigneur in Louisiana from fresh water to salt water overnight in a drilling accident. Then there are all the oil tanker disasters. The biggest ever was Exxon in the gulf war. The next were Mobil and Amoco. There was a big one only last month in the great barrier reef of Australia. The industry as a whole needs a cleanup policy. An international agency would need to be created funded by all members of the oil industry to deal with, shipwrecks, leaks, pipeline safety, refinery accidents, etc.
A large company like Exxon makes 30 -40 billion PROFIT per year. A fund of a few billion per year divided by all the major companies would do the trick (lets say 0.8 percent of all international oil profits), be relatively cheap and minimise worldwide environmental effects considerably.



Guest -> [Deleted] (May 18 2010 8:43:38)

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Ron.M -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 10:57:59)

quote:

I am glad I did not get that job back in 2007 in one of their refineries.


Really Shroomy?

I remember at the time you were pretty depressed about being unemployed.

I honestly don't think it's about the individual worker, working for a wage for a Company.

It's much bigger than that, in the same way the Banks are back to "business as usual" with the same risky gambling, backed by cheap money and no real controls.
That's not your local Bank Tellers fault...They're just trying to meet their bills and have a roof over their heads..

Just like Obama is naively appealing to BP's sense of justice and reason in this incident as a man of fairness and reason himself.

I bet BP pay their $75M and walk away leaving the US taxpayer to clear up the $Billions of costs.

All these companies HAVE no sense of justice and reason.[:D]

Only profit for the Company and bonuses for the guys at the top.

"To big to fail" is the best deal anyone can get themselves into.

However...let's not make it a them and us situation..

A lot of folk have pensions and savings invested in all these "nasty" companies and moan and groan when their share prices fall.

Can't have it both ways folks.


cheers,

Ron



Guest -> [Deleted] (May 18 2010 11:32:41)

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Ron.M -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 11:50:04)

quote:

"riding out" the economic downturn.


Shroomy,

I've been "riding things out" for the last 25 years or so... and am still alive with zero debt 'cos I never took on any except a mortgage.

Don't worry.

All things come and go.

As the HitchHiker's Guide To the Galaxy says..." Don't Panic" [:D]

cheers,

Ron

PS: "Wichita"....Makes me think of "Wichita Lineman" [:D]
Sounds dreadfully romantic and interesting from here!

Guess that's the magic in songs!



Arash -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 12:10:06)

Sorry, but you are all blaming the wrong people.
BP and Co. are just the manifestation of the oli hungry governments and also wall street who force all the companies to take more risk and to give the best oil reserve prognosis.

Its the same as the Bank Crisis. The goverments knew everything, but just WATCHED and even made laxly rules which made it very easy for the banks to do whatever they want with maximum risk.

Just recently Obama said that they must drill for oil near the coasts and that its vital for energy supply.

And now everyone is blaming BP (which of course is part of the whole system) and other oil companies, but not the main cheaf culprit.

If you are really interested in enviroment as a goverment, you make very very hard rules and you will see that there will be not a single oil accident anymore. I mean, sorry but some goverments even attacked other countries for oil, so don't expect too much love for enviroment or love for an ocean.



Escribano -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 12:23:38)

quote:

BP and Co. are just the manifestation of the oli hungry governments and also wall street who force all the companies to take more risk and to give the best oil reserve prognosis.


Hear hear, I was just going to post the same. A government has no interest whatsoever in hurting the oil companies (too much). It's completely against their interests. Same goes for the financial institutions, pharmaceuticals, defence etc. One big self-serving eco-system that shall not be upset by mere governments.



Guest -> [Deleted] (May 18 2010 13:03:00)

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fevictor -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 13:03:05)

quote:

Sorry, but you are all blaming the wrong people.


I agree and I think that we as whole are all to blame, too. We are an oil hungry world and we demand that gasoline and diesel be readily available at every pump, for a low price and for as long as we are alive. We love our airplanes, our air shows, our car and motorcycle and boat races, and basically everything that has to do with petroleum based products.

Although we are not directly responsible for these disasters, we as a whole are the ones that are driving the oil companies to drill in more and more places all over the world in search of more oil.

I totally agree that these companies need stricter regulations and control over what they do. They should also be forced to have more back ups and fail safe systems in place especially when drilling in delicate eco systems. I like Pims idea of forming an international committee and that oil companies be forced to pay a percentage of their profit. I hope that something like that can be put into place, and soon - before its too late.

But heres the catch - anything mechanical is prone to failure. Even the best design in the world "can" fail at some point. Unfortunately when we are talking about drilling for oil, any failure has the potential to be catastrophic.

The worst part is that there is no new energy source readily available that will soon take the place of petroleum. There are lots different ideas, like Hydrogen, fuel cells, bio fuel, solar energy, tidal energy, etc., but none will be able to take on the worlds energy demands. Not yet, anyway.

So, for the moment, we are at the mercy of these oil companies and can only hope that our governments help to prevent future failures such as this one.

Here is a question: Will anyone do their part to reduce the impact that the oil industry makes on this world? Will you take the bus a bit more, car pool, walk to the store instead of driving, ride your bicycle more often, etc. Because thats where we need to start. Some countries are already leading the world in green technology and lifestyle. I think that we could all learn a bit more and apply these practices to our everyday life.

What do you think?

Vic



Ricardo -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 13:22:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arash

Sorry, but you are all blaming the wrong people.
BP and Co. are just the manifestation of the oli hungry governments and also wall street who force all the companies to take more risk and to give the best oil reserve prognosis.

Its the same as the Bank Crisis. The goverments knew everything, but just WATCHED and even made laxly rules which made it very easy for the banks to do whatever they want with maximum risk.

Just recently Obama said that they must drill for oil near the coasts and that its vital for energy supply.

And now everyone is blaming BP (which of course is part of the whole system) and other oil companies, but not the main cheaf culprit.

If you are really interested in enviroment as a goverment, you make very very hard rules and you will see that there will be not a single oil accident anymore. I mean, sorry but some goverments even attacked other countries for oil, so don't expect too much love for enviroment or love for an ocean.


Be honest. It is YOUR fault. And mine. All of us. We know we don't need THAT much oil to function in life. Anyone who flew on a plane, rode in a car, mowed the lawn etc...is to blame for what WE have done. Avoid all that, then complain about oil spills and such. The gov or comany, individual investor etc, all just making money on people they KNOW WANT to consume cuz they are too lazy to use solar, electric, walk, etc... lets make life easy on ourselves then blame rich people for accidents.

So swallow it and move on. Or plant a tree...and hug it while your at it.[;)][:D]

EDIT: Sorry victor said it much nicer than me![8D]



cathulu -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 18:03:06)

I agree, it is all our fault. We keep doing what were doing. Our need for oil is insatiable.

But my main beef is the way the response has been handled by BP. Has the Chairman or President of the Company said anything? When will they come out of hiding?

The wolf is guarding the henhouse. That has to change.

Plus, they need at least 2 back-up systems in place to shut down a well. Not one. And they need the cone as back-up number three, or whatever else will work.



BarkellWH -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 19:28:04)

I agree completely with Ricardo and would reinforce his message with the following thoughts. We have met the enemy, and it definitely is us! anyone who drives a car when he could walk, anyone who is enthralled with his gadgets and electronic devices (all of which require power), anyone who has two cars in the family when one would do, is just as guilty of producing environmental disasters such as BP's in the Gulf as is BP and other such companies. I wonder how many people who howl about Big Oil, Wall Street, Rapacious Governments, etc., have looked at their own actifities and can say that their lifestyle did not help drive demand for oil and electrical power. We create the demand that drives companies to supply that demand. It hardly behooves us to adopt a morally superior attitude on this issue.

Cheers,

Bill



cathulu -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 19:37:11)

Well my guilt is assuaged because I ride my bicycle at least three days to work, or I take the Motorcycle or my scooter. But then I have two cars, one sits in my driveway mostly though.

Does anyone want to buy my carbon credits? [:D]



Arash -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 23:24:11)

Sure, we are all guilty. I agree to that to a certain point.

Same reasons were mentioned when we had the global financial crisis.

Many people said , if there would be no buyers of those toxic assets (ordinary people like you and me who wanted to make few bucks easy and fast), then there would be also no sellers (banks). So, don't blame the banks and the goverments, blame the 5 billion greedy people living on this planet.

So, yes we are all guilty.
Well, that sounds like a very nice self critisism. Ole to all of you.

But here is the difference between my thoughts and yours:

We are humans. And those in power know our weaknesses (both psychologically and physically) and misuse them 24 hours a day for their own Joy!. Hell, there are even special schools who teach how to arouse something from nothing!

Don't tell me that the ordinary Joe requested super markets and shops with millions of different types of cheese, bread, plastic toys, and everything else which nobody really needs but simply buys because he is bombarded daily with all the unnecessary crap and the brain simply gives up after a while and buys that sh!t.

Don't tell me that some plain worker had the idea to go to the bank and ask for toxic assets. He was surely visited and manipulated, till he signed the contract (and of course did his part for the crisis)

Don't tell me that people asked for the brilliant "cash for clunkers" idea to buy a new car, even though their previous car was good enough.

Look, i have a BMW, a LCD TV, a Bluray player and all the other plastic crap which were made out of oil, which nobody really needs.
Yes, thats my part of the guilt.

But i am not going to be responsible for the cold war, the war in Iraq with millions of dead people, and all the other crap which happened in the past and which for sure will also happen in the future.

I should be living on an Island with no electricity, just a vegetable garden, some sheep and a fireplace and just my wooden guitar (hey Ricardo, actually someone killed some nice brazillian Palisanto and Cypress Trees for your
guitars and mine too lol)

But man, there is NO WAY to escape from all the crap surrounded by you. its everywhere. you are forced to do what everybody does. and if you don't , then you are simply an Alien on earth and seperated from the rest of the society.
thats the trick. you can't brake the cycle.

The problem is, as soon as part of humans have power, they want more. Then a sick GAME starts. They gamble with the lives of everybody (and even sometimes with their own lives)

We humans are sick and are all guilty for sure.

But SOME are REAL PSYCHOS!
And unfortunately those Psychos are not stupid, but the most "brilliant" minds.



XXX -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 18 2010 23:39:06)

quote:

We create the demand that drives companies to supply that demand


I cant believe that im the only one seeing this. Nobody wants to have gallons of oil in the seas. Nobody wants cars that dont stand a crash test. Nobody wants to eat meat which is already fouled. But people buy crap because they simply dont have the money to buy something decent. It is cynical to interpret this economical dead end into something like a decision.

Point will always be that if governments dont prevent abuse of human and nature, there will always be exploitation of at least one of both.
Lets face it, the aim of companies is profit and more profit. It is daily routine to "outsource" work, or to intensify work, to save "costs"... then something bad happens because you are too few staff for maintenance of a train or oil station, or too bad materials to work with whatever, and then make people responsible? In Germany they even had problems in atomic plants and didnt reported it until it came in the media. If there wasnt an agency of the state observing them, who knows what would have happened.



Ron.M -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 4:54:59)

Also, how many of the pros and semi pros here would turn down a 2 hour BP corporate gig at say $5000 plus travel and expenses?

"Dear BP...Thank you for your offer, but I'm afraid we shall have to decline on principle. Please remove our name from your entertainments list". [:D][:D]

cheers,

Ron



Pimientito -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 6:22:34)

...but how far do you take this? Do you also not accept corporate gigs from Goldman Sachs, Pg and electric, Nestlé, Halliburton etc. etc. I mean when it comes down to it, if a rich arms dealer or gangster invites you to his house to play guitar for his dinner guests, do you accept the money? When do you decide not to take money from someone? Its much easier to justify any action if it means feeding your family.

This thread has had some very interesting comments guys. I think that it shows that this matter goes much higher than an individual company. Our society creates demands for resources and companies supply them at any cost. They can make massive profits but don't seem to shoulder any responsibility for their business practices. This is the biggest problem with our capitalist model...corporations can make as much money as they can for share holders without any responsibility to our environment or local communities. Its all about making money today and not worrying about tomorrow. There is no sense of renewing resources, preserving for the future generations or being accountable for ruining the lives of communities in order to make a profit. The same corporations effectively buy policies that allow them to make more profit by lobbying politicians. Our lawmakers therefore do not work for the people but for the corporations. There has to be a radical global shift in thinking to have a model of responsible capitalism that can be profitable without mistreating ones employees and destroying the environment. The problem is so tied up with our banking and Monetary system that I fear it would be a knot impossible to untangle until our (illegal) fiat based system of credit to create currency is challenged.



Ricardo -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 6:48:11)

quote:

But man, there is NO WAY to escape from all the crap surrounded by you. its everywhere. you are forced to do what everybody does. and if you don't , then you are simply an Alien on earth and seperated from the rest of the society.


There ARE people like that. They are just not famous. And THEY have every right to complain about this crap. WE don't. I am not such a person. I am accepting responsibility for the disaster and those of the future. I dont want to live in the woods and eat bugs. I DO have that choice however. I am part of the evil and will be punished by mother earth accordingly at some point. I accept that.



Ron.M -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 6:58:15)

quote:

if a rich arms dealer or gangster invites you to his house to play guitar for his dinner guests


"Hey kid...I'm gonna make you an offer of a gig you can't refuse..."[8D]

"Whatdidyoo say??....Hey LOOK AT ME...Whatdidyoo say??... Are you disrespecting me, my friends and my guests or what??...This does not make me happy...not happy at all.." [:D][:D]

cheers,

Ron



Ron.M -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 7:09:35)

quote:

I dont want to live in the woods and eat bugs.


[:D][:D][:D]

The "Bugs Rights Movement" won't be happy about that.

cheers,

Ron



runner -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 8:16:18)

You will notice that, in ALL discussions of global decay and decline, nobody ever discusses the one hundred megaton gorilla in the room--cancerous world population growth. Governments never talk about controlling population growth; politicians, religious people, nobody--it's completely off the radar screen. Might get the Right to Lifers worked up, or the eternal optimists, the "we can grow our way out of this" crowd. Read Thomas Malthus' Essay on Population, and Garrett Hardin's classic "The Tragedy of the Commons" and you'll understand why the world is a dump and it's only going to get worse.

Cheerio!

runner



Arash -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 8:37:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: runner

You will notice that, in ALL discussions of global decay and decline, nobody ever discusses the one hundred megaton gorilla in the room--cancerous world population growth. Governments never talk about controlling population growth; politicians, religious people, nobody--it's completely off the radar screen. Might get the Right to Lifers worked up, or the eternal optimists, the "we can grow our way out of this" crowd. Read Thomas Malthus' Essay on Population, and Garrett Hardin's classic "The Tragedy of the Commons" and you'll understand why the world is a dump and it's only going to get worse.

Cheerio!

runner


Interesting point runner.

Even for Paco this is the biggest problem.

From an Interview:

- Is there something that scares you in todays world?

Paco: what scares me most is that we are so many ! At the moment thats what scares me most. Nobody talks about it, and maybe i shouldn't do it either. They even give people more money if they get more children! But we humans are a plague ! A Virus on this planet which is destroying it. Why do we have to have 15 children? Why isn't there any control ? Maybe thats politically not correct, but the only reason for all of the problems like Global Warming or enviromental Polution is because we are consuming more and more because we simply are so many ! We are like Cancer who is eating Earth.

---

Good points, anyway, Paco was a little exaggerating with 15 Children.
I mean even in Africa they don't get more than 5 children nowadays [;)]
Not to speak of Spain or Mexico where he lived and lives ;-)

---

Ricardo: yes, i get your points. I am just saying that it's all like a doom loop. Even if we would want to live in the woods and eat bugs, we couldn't, because we are so much used to our actual way of living that nearly nobody would accept such a life.
Anyway, eating Bugs and ugly insects is quite Hip nowadays in Europe and you pay a lot of money for it .[;)]



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fevictor -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 9:11:25)

There is a big difference between a bank or government telling you that your loan is approved and fueling up every couple of days at your local Shell station.

Most people, including me, are veyr ignorant when it comes money and the financial world. It all happens behind the scenes and behind closed doors, but with great marketing to mislead us and take advantage of us and our wallets. If the stock market crashes, or the housing market goes to the dogs, if the banks need bailing out or the entire country goes to hell, thats the fault of the people running the show.

But you would have had to have lived in the woods eating bugs for the better part of the last 3 decades to not know that petroleum is bad for the earth. We all know that we are slowly destroying the earth but we dont care.

But I do think that the major culprits are the governments. It is their job to guide the country in the right direction. Im pretty sure that the USA would love nothing more than to not have to depend on the Arabs and good old Chavez, or even Canada for that matter. Better public transit can generate good revenue and government grants can be set up for those that dont own a vehicle. The possible incentives are endless, but too little is being done.

I worked for about 10 years in the alternative fuels industry in Canada only to see it slowly decline because of lack of funding. Cars that were on Propane or Natural Gas are now few and far between, there is no infrastructure in place, no more government grants for vehicle owners that want to convert, etc.

None of this matters though...because we will all DIE ON DECEMBER 24TH 2012!!! [:o]

Vic



fevictor -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 9:13:14)

Arash can you send me the recipe for those bug tacos?? they look really tasty!![8D]



Ron.M -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 9:17:10)

quote:

we will all DIE ON DECEMBER 24TH 2012!!!






Guest -> [Deleted] (May 19 2010 9:44:40)

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Arash -> RE: British Petroleum Makes me SICK (May 19 2010 10:04:42)

good posts everyone.
the truth is probably a mix of all things mentioned in the posts.

Victor, those are actually african Locusts.
I think there are many recipes on internet, just google if you are really interested , i am not a good gourmet cook [:D]



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