When I strike the thumb there is usualy a small delay before I come up with the first index stroke. For example... it is p i a m i right?
now, the time gap between p and i is bigger than the ones between a m i.
I have listened to this happening with some artists but other recordings show no timing difference between any of the strokes.
What is normal?
any ideas?
thanks
PS I think that timing uniformity should be the goal...
fevictor -> RE: Tremolo (May 16 2010 15:56:52)
HI asfalios,
I recommend playing tremolo very, very slowly until you have complete control over each note. Use a metronome and work on achieving a uniform tremolo at a very slow speed, then gradually working up. Once you have complete control you should be able to play with speeds and different sounds.
I still have a ways to go with my tremolo, but I have been working on it a lot lately and concentrating on what I mentioned above. I have seen a considerable improvement in both my tremolo and arpeggios, too.
Hope this helps.
Vic
John O. -> RE: Tremolo (May 17 2010 1:21:19)
quote:
the time gap between p and i is bigger than the ones between a m i
You can hear this all the time in solo pieces, it strengthens the accents. At other times it's better to be right on time throughout though.
This is a technique where sensitivity is more important than strength. Play against a metronome and really concentrate on hitting the string in the right spot for the right tone with the least amount of stress or movement of the hand. Your fingers should only slightly strike the strings moving inward towards the palm of your hand. See if you can only move the upper half of the fingers, meaning only bending the middle joints and not the joints of your hand. You can do this faster because you need less movement.
There should be no break in the tone - so no staccato (unless you want that), this means the contact/tension against the string should be minimum, this also gives the impression of being faster.
This all pertains to one particular style of tremolo and isn't always how you should play. But I'd say for training the tremolo it's the best start.
Ricardo -> RE: Tremolo (May 17 2010 6:17:37)
quote:
ORIGINAL: asfalios
Hi guys,
I have this question about tremolo...
When I strike the thumb there is usualy a small delay before I come up with the first index stroke. For example... it is p i a m i right?
now, the time gap between p and i is bigger than the ones between a m i.
I have listened to this happening with some artists but other recordings show no timing difference between any of the strokes.
What is normal?
any ideas?
thanks
PS I think that timing uniformity should be the goal...
The tempo or speed is givin clearly by the thumb strokes, the bass notes. So, you are free to kind of play around with the iami part of the technique, so long as you are giving the bass notes clear as the beat. For example, a super slow tempo solea, you can do this technique and leave LOTS of space before i starts. A fast fandangos or something, well you don't have time to leave space so you do it evenly. A free taranta you can do it even or leave a space to accent a certain chord change or phrase, as your tastes dictate.
In anycase when practicing just the technique, work on the entire range of possiblities, leaving a long gap to leaving NO gap at all.
Example: Notice the phrasing in 3 but he often holds out 1 longer.....1.....2,3,1.....2,3,1......etc
ricardo
Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Tremolo (May 17 2010 6:33:05)
Is Plaza Jazzpana the correct name for this song? I've seen it posted on Ytube under various names.
Ricardo -> RE: Tremolo (May 17 2010 7:13:35)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Pgh_flamenco
Is Plaza Jazzpana the correct name for this song? I've seen it posted on Ytube under various names.
No. Gerardo is notoriously bad at names for his pieces. They change if ever re records some of the themes. Best to just use Palo names like "buleria in C" or "solea por buleria, mibemo, labemol, rebemol...etc). Originally this tremolo was played for Carmen Cortes' "Yerma" show. So the intro is usually called "yerma' but I have heard Gerardo call it "Rondeña" in concert!!![8D]
The bulerias in the vid was orginally called "Samaruco" on Jazzpaña II, so myself and students call it that (or buleria in C or Do), but later he recorded it on his solo CD as "Siempre es Tarde" I think.
The solea por buleria has gone through several names, "Plaza Jazzpaña" was the term used, obviously from the Jazzpañs CD where that theme was used as a "head" for a jazz fusion project.
Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Tremolo (May 17 2010 9:08:36)
quote:
Originally this tremolo was played for Carmen Cortes' "Yerma" show.
"Yerma" that's what I thought it was. Anyway, I'm aware of Gerardo's use of multiple titles for the same song now. I'll stick with palo and key as you suggest. Thanks, Ricardo.
Stu -> RE: Tremolo (May 17 2010 14:02:29)
Oh god!! [:D][:D]It's the bloody tremolo from yerma!!!! if only it was named correctly i may have found this ages ago!!
I love this.....i have since found the tab,,,but was trying to transcribe it for ages with no vid.
mark indigo -> RE: Tremolo (May 18 2010 4:07:15)
quote:
In anycase when practicing just the technique, work on the entire range of possiblities, leaving a long gap to leaving NO gap at all.
being able to control it and choose what you play is the key here, and Gerardo of course has total control and freedom of expression
what's really terrible is when you hear dum - da,da,da,da (ie. the beat is divided into 6 instead of 5 and the bass note lasts for the first two divisions) all the time, every beat/tremolo group like this;
if you can get what i'm trying to represent i'm sure you will agree it sounds dreadful but is a common mistake, especially when it has a double triplet feel (ie. the a finger is slightly accented as well as p), like this;
EXACTLY THE TROUBLE IM FACING. when itry to play faster i can only get this effect. i guess if i want uniformity i should practice slow at first.
M.S.A. -> [Deleted] (May 24 2010 10:50:49)
Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Mar. 1 2011 0:04:12
mark indigo -> RE: Tremolo (May 25 2010 2:34:08)
quote:
EXACTLY THE TROUBLE IM FACING. when itry to play faster i can only get this effect. i guess if i want uniformity i should practice slow at first.
you said it!
yeah, practise slowly and build up speed gradually.
I know other people have other exercises that have helped them, but one thing that helped me was to put a metronome up quite fast, say 200 bpm (or slower at first if necessary) and play one note of the tremelo per click, so you know it is exactly even.
If you have a digital one you might be able to speed it up from there (you might also be able to set it to 5/4 so you get an accent every 5 clicks which will correspond with your thumb note - although you can also practise so that i is on the beat/accent, m is on the beat/accent, a is on the beat/accent, etc.).
another thing that helped me was to practise other combinations, pmiam, pmami, pamia. the standard piami always seems easier after that!
also, if you are not already doing it, practise on the 2nd and 3rd as well as the top string.
one thing i have found though, is that when i slow down recordings, although you don't notice it at speed, they sometimes sound uneven at half speed.
ElDuende -> RE: Tremolo (May 25 2010 7:30:54)
When practicing tremolo I put my metronome down at about 70-100bpm and play 5 notes per beat, and work up from there. (The thumb plays on the beat). I found a good way to mentally break down the beat is to tap out the 5 beats on a table so you can hear how uniform they are, then try to play that.
mark indigo -> RE: Tremolo (May 25 2010 14:38:29)
quote:
I put my metronome down at about 70-100bpm and play 5 notes per beat
that's good for making sure the thumb notes are even, but won't help if there is an uneven gap between the thumb note and the index note....
Ricardo -> RE: Tremolo (May 25 2010 14:54:48)
quote:
ORIGINAL: mark indigo
quote:
In anycase when practicing just the technique, work on the entire range of possiblities, leaving a long gap to leaving NO gap at all.
being able to control it and choose what you play is the key here, and Gerardo of course has total control and freedom of expression
what's really terrible is when you hear dum - da,da,da,da (ie. the beat is divided into 6 instead of 5 and the bass note lasts for the first two divisions) all the time, every beat/tremolo group like this;
if you can get what i'm trying to represent i'm sure you will agree it sounds dreadful but is a common mistake, especially when it has a double triplet feel (ie. the a finger is slightly accented as well as p), like this;
As much as you don't like it, it actually is a way to do the tremolo and express the compas in a way that you feel the "up beat" between the bass notes. That aspect of the rhythm is lost with an even 5 note interpretation. In this sense, I dont' think it so bad and as you said yourself most slowed down versions of flamenco tremolos are not even 5 tuplets. Same can go for rasgueados that are supposed to be 5's. Another interpretation is 2 16th notes and 3 triplets. That is a common occuring rhythm that again expresses the up beat.
To achieve even 5's perfectly even, I recommend two ways better then using a metronome for one stroke per click. first is to count, but not numbers, do a phrase like indian percussionists count. Da di gi na gum, da di gi na gum, etc....
Or do like Victor does at the end, but in reverse. Instead of one click every 5 over 4 note phrases, you let it click once ever 4 notes of your 5 note phrase. That way you have more room to speed up without needing a fancy metronome.
Ricardo
mark indigo -> RE: Tremolo (May 26 2010 13:10:35)
quote:
As much as you don't like it
what i don't like is when someone can't not do it, ie. they have no intention to be doing it, and can't do anything else.... it's like when someone can't keep time and makes excuses like it's "expression". You can keep good time, so you can choose to play rubato (or different rhythmic expressions of 5 notes in a beat) and it's convincing.
quote:
most slowed down versions of flamenco tremolos are not even 5 tuplets
yeah but they don't sound like what i was trying to describe when at speed!
The guy i was thinking of would probably count
quote:
Da di gi na gum, da di gi na gum, etc....
unevenly, so i would still recommend the metronome for that person, 'cos they can't argue with a metronome! (though they had real trouble actually listening to it and playing along....)
Exitao -> RE: Tremolo (May 27 2010 5:53:36)
quote:
without needing a fancy metronome
Huh? But I need fancy accessories because they're fancy.
Simple methods that work and instil musicality pall next to the pleasure of possessing new gadgetry.
