picado fingering question (Full Version)

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HolyEvil -> picado fingering question (May 6 2010 5:35:05)

hey guys..
just checking.. I know picado is always alternating, but if it's after a hammer on or slide, can the same finger be used on another string??

eg
-----------
-----------
1h2----0-
------0----
------------
------------

so index on the first note, then hammer on the 2, then index on the D string and ring finger on the G string.

cheers



Elie -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 5:52:14)

I think you're dragging it or using the index finger twice which is not recommended or not allowed .
from my experience and after seeing your example I think no you can't do that
do it like :
index on the first note, then hammer on the 2, then *middle* on the D string and *ring or index* finger on the G string.
or
index on the first note, then hammer on the 2, then *thumb* on the D string and *ring or index or middle* finger on the G string.



at_leo_87 -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 9:32:36)

i would start with M. then i on the g string then m on the third.

slurs during picados are really tricky for me because they interrupt the flow.



mark indigo -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 13:25:46)

this is an interesting point

The principle of picado is alternation, and every one has to learn this, at least at the beginning.

But the practise is not always so, particularly where slurs are concerned, as in the case of your question.

I have seen Gerardo Nuñez, Tomatito, Pepe Habichuela and Enrique de Melchor all play a note with a finger, play a slur and then repeat that same finger to play the next note, as in your question example.

There are examples on all their Encuentro's. Check Tomatito on the last phrase of the intro to the Soleá Por Bulería. Or Gerardo on the end of the Tangos falseta in the picado section. Or Pepe Habichuela in Soleá Por Bulerías or Alegrías.

I have also been told (by a high level guitarist who has spent years studying his technique) that Paco de Lucía plays this way, in order to maintain the rhythm of alternating fingers on/off beat.

I don't know why noone ever seems to mention these examples, as there are so many they almost seem the rule.



John O. -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 13:32:19)

Once you're good enough to know when you can drag the finger, then you can drag the finger. Before that you CAN'T! I tell my students it's like a sprinter hopping on one foot because it's closer to the ground. You lose the dynamics between the fingers by holding them still in that moment.

In this case I wouldn't. If there were a melody just before this which would require me to start this melody with the i finger I might drag so that I could start with the m finger instead, but generally I never would.



ToddK -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 13:48:46)

quote:

Once you're good enough to know when you can drag the finger, then you can drag the finger.


How do you know when you're good enough?
[:D][:D][:D]



minordjango -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 14:19:12)

quote:

principle of picado is alternation,


and scott tennant on his pumping nylon vid , he has some speed building exercises and also used the repetitive finger ................so confusing.!!



mark indigo -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 14:52:50)

quote:

so confusing


not really, the principle is still alternation, but if you are playing 4 notes per beat starting with m on the beat it has a certain rhythmic stability to it.

if you want to play note-slur-note-note (say, at the beginning of a run), then if you alternate strictly you will play m-slur-i-m and end up with i on the (next) beat and lose that rhythmic stability (i know the object of a lot of picado technique training is to get i and m to be of equal strenth power and sound, but in reality finger length and nail shape differences make this almost impossible).

if you played each note with right hand fingers (no slur) you would play m-i-m-i and have m on the (next) beat, and i would have played the slurred note.

so in effect if you play m-slur-m-i the right hand fingers "alternate" without actually contacting the string on the note you played with the left hand slur, m plays again on the next beat and then you keep strict alternation.



HolyEvil -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 15:16:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

i would start with M. then i on the g string then m on the third.

slurs during picados are really tricky for me because they interrupt the flow.


hey mate, it's actually part of a run and it has to start with i on the note I mentioned, if not the previous 10 notes will have alot of m on the lower and i in the higher string.. :(



Andy Culpepper -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 15:41:25)

check it out....

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=136609&p=1&tmode=1&smode=1



John O. -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 22:20:14)

quote:

How do you know when you're good enough?


He's asking whether it's okay, so he can't! [:D]

Seriously, when you're able to actively control whether you do it or not without confusion. If you don't alternate, it should be because you don't want to, not because you can't.



Florian -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 22:41:52)

as Leo mentioned that's classic start with M for the hammer- on leaving your I nice and ready for the next note..

soon it will all start to make sence to you ...theres certain runs and things that work better starting with M...and your example its perfect...usualy when ascending its eazyer to lead with I...so because u are ascending right after the hammer- on...you wanna land in a way that your I is ready to begin...if you drag the pause and the volume between notes will not always be perfectly even


and i guess u could drag it but all this technique was written for a reason and it was thought out to make your life eazyer in the long run, there is sence behind everything...even if it seems unecesarely harder atm ...it is the eazyest possible way to get there in the long run


so when u practice picado make sure u practice starting with M too



John O. -> RE: picado fingering question (May 6 2010 23:32:04)

quote:

it is the eazyest possible way to get there in the long run


Cool pun [:D]



Ricardo -> RE: picado fingering question (May 8 2010 10:00:10)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

i would start with M. then i on the g string then m on the third.

slurs during picados are really tricky for me because they interrupt the flow.


hey mate, it's actually part of a run and it has to start with i on the note I mentioned, if not the previous 10 notes will have alot of m on the lower and i in the higher string.. :(


I was gonna ask what came before. In that case YES you should "repeat i" finger so it all works out nice. Also imagine that you actually executed the slur with picado...you would necessarily use m finger and you can see the rest works out the same, nothing changes. So also try it without the slur.

Ricardo



HolyEvil -> RE: picado fingering question (May 8 2010 16:56:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I was gonna ask what came before. In that case YES you should "repeat i" finger so it all works out nice. Also imagine that you actually executed the slur with picado...you would necessarily use m finger and you can see the rest works out the same, nothing changes. So also try it without the slur.

Ricardo


thanks ricardo! I actually practiced both ways now and now both repeating 'i' and not repeating the 'i' feels natural.. when I play I realise that sometimes i use the repeating, sometimes without the repeating 'i' without me conciously thinking about it. Is this a good thing or should i always concentrated on which finger I want to use?



M.S.A. -> [Deleted] (May 14 2010 10:48:42)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 23:42:14



M.S.A. -> [Deleted] (May 14 2010 11:17:14)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Feb. 28 2011 23:42:40



devilhand -> RE: picado fingering question (Dec. 24 2022 22:00:23)

quote:

I have also been told (by a high level guitarist who has spent years studying his technique) that Paco de Lucía plays this way, in order to maintain the rhythm of alternating fingers on/off beat.

I wonder who it was. He was right. I've seen Paco doing the same thing. If he has spent years studying Paco's technique his explanation why must be spot-on as well.

But your explanation makes more sense to me.

quote:

this is not instead of strict alternation, this is as well as/part of strict alternation, as the same finger does not play two consecutive notes, but two notes separated by another note played ligado

quote:

so in effect if you play m-slur-m-i the right hand fingers "alternate" without actually contacting the string on the note you played with the left hand slur, m plays again on the next beat and then you keep strict alternation.



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