Tonerite review

Tonerite review (Full Version)

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Patrick -> Tonerite review (May 4 2010 14:35:14)
A few weeks ago, a post was made about the Tonerite unit. At the time, I was testing it on two of my guitars and now have a pretty good feel for its viability (or not). First off, what is a Tonrite unit? It’s best to refer to the Tonerite site for their take: http://tonerite.com/guitar Basically these folks are working from known studies in the use of vibrations to “de-damp”, or “open-up” an instrument. Therein lies the conundrum. It has been discussed on this and many other forums about the ability of an instrument to improve over time by the so called “opening up” process. Now, as I stated in the prior Tonerite thread, I have no intention of debating the “opening up” process or for that matter the Tonerite unit in general. My intent is to share with you my experiences, good or bad. But, (and again I have no intention of debating), I have in years of being around high-end guitars, never (again, never), meet anyone including builders or owners, that “do not” subscribe to the belief that guitars “open up”. This process can take months or years. I think the reason many feel it isn’t valid, is it can be so long, they become accustom to the subtle changes along the way, and never realizing major changes have taken place. For those of you interested, take a look at the various forum threads on the Tonerite unit. The Colling’s site has the most comprehensive info available. They have info on something like a hundred guitars that have had the Tonerite treatment. http://collingsforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/94760485/m/941101681 Ton’s of other info is available on various forums including the Unofficial Martin Guitar and Mandolin Café sites. Here’s an interesting article from well known acoustic builder Tim McNight: http://www.mcknightguitars.com/tonerite%202.html Apparently he doesn’t let a guitar out of his shop without the use of the Tonerite. One of the comments repeated on the forums is: “One of the joys of owning a good guitar is hearing it open up and improve over time”. To me this statement is totally irrational. Let’s say you want to buy a new Conde A26’s for instance. So we walk into our friendly Conde dealer and luckily find six brand new A26’s in stock. OK, my question is: which one do you buy? Well you buy the “best sounding” one of course! You don’t say “Yeah that one over there sounds better, but I’m going to take this one because I think it’s going to sound better in five years”. I myself want a guitar to reach its greatest potential in the least amount of time, but that’s just me. For that matter, I don’t have the patients (or maybe time) for bananas to ripen! Another comment is about the cost. I paid $150 for mine. Some say that’s a ridicules amount to charge for something that just vibrates your guitar. But then again, that’s the same guy that just spent fifteen bucks on a set of strings that last a month. Yeah, a hundred and fifty bucks if your guitar is worth a hundred might not make sense, but if it’s worth three grand or more…maybe. Another comment is “I want to see scientific data”. Well again, I could care less, if my guitar sounds better, that’s good enough for me. So, what have been my experiences? The Tonerite folks say to run the unit for at least two or three 72 hour sessions. I don’t know what is magic about 72 hours, but I did what I was told. My first use was on my Aaron Green Brazilian. This guitar is a bit over a year old. I have also owned a Green Blanca that had some of the same issues as my newer negra. Aaron builds for mids and trebles with the expectation the basses will catch up. Both guitars have had what I call “thuddy” basses. Not a lot of complexity, in fact, well thuddy. The mids of the newer negra had an overabundance of nasal tone that overpowered the guitar. The trebles were very nice, but didn’t have the crisp punch I like and were a hair muddy. After the first 72 hours on the highest setting on the Tonerite, I didn’t notice any difference at all. For that matter after the next 72 hours I felt it may have improved somewhat, but it may have been wishful thinking. The next 72 hours was on the mid setting on the unit. Well now boys and girls this is were it gets interesting. I could tell right off the bat some significant changes had taken place. The first thing I noticed were the basses ringing and the mids sounding a bunch cleaner. I had read in several posts the unit can kill a set of strings in a few days and they are right on the money. Now keep in mind, the strings were pretty much new when I put the unit on. After the last 72 hour session, I replaced the strings with the same ones I had on it. Now I know it’s going to sound hokey, but this guitar is a faint memory of its prior self. The basses are now bright and bold and the nasal mid tone has been toned down. I think the most significant change was in the trebles. Now keep in mind they were good to begin with, but are exceptional now. I think they may have a hair more volume, but more important is the crisp attack they now have. In a nut shell, pretty impressive. I have used the unit on the Green for a week or so more, but haven’t noticed any significant change. The second guitar I used it on was my five year old DeVoe negra. I wasn’t really expecting much from the Toerite as this guitar has pretty much everything you could ever ask for. This guitar didn’t start out that way though; it took a lot of hard playing to get it to that point. I used the Tonerite in the same schedule as the Green and as I expected, I can’t tell any difference what so ever in the before and after. I am running it on the low setting on this guitar now to see if it does anything, but I doubt it. So there you have it, mixed reviews, but when it worked, it really worked well. The Tonerite isn’t going to change a bad guitar into a great one. It really only has the potential to improve on what it has to work with. I would have my doubts it will help a low-end factory guitar. And in the case of a well used guitar like my DeVoe, it’s questionable, but who knows. For me, it was a great investment

kozz -> RE: Tonerite review (May 8 2010 1:03:05)
Thanks for your review Patrick. Nice to see that it works on one and not on another, it gives you something to think about. Do you need to use the Tonerite on a daily basis now, or when it has done his job, just put it away?

HemeolaMan -> RE: Tonerite review (May 8 2010 9:22:18)
I may invest in one of those just to see if it increases salability of new guitars, if the buyer's perception is that the guitar is more mature sounding than perhaps a new guitar would be

keith -> RE: Tonerite review (May 8 2010 10:05:47)
as i understand this gizmo and how it works, the strings at the sadde/bridge are vibrated. in theory one should be able to use any machine that vibrates. i am curious if a small personal vibrator (not the sex toy variety) would work. brookstone and other similar stores sell vibrators that are large and small and one can get a small vibrator for about $20. it would be easy to attach the $20 vibrator onto the saddle and let it vibrate during work hours each and every day for weeks on end or 24 hours a day for days on end. the point is something like a small personal vibrator could do the trick as well as the tonerite. additionally, one the guitar has opened up one could use said vibrator to relieve achy muscles, etc. here is where i need patrick's experience with the unit. patrick, does the tonerite vibrate in a similar manner as a personal muscle relaxing vibrator? is there something special about the vibrations of the tonerite? thanks.

Ron.M -> RE: Tonerite review (May 8 2010 10:14:53)
Well keith...I think the "poor man's" Tonerite may be to stick a 3" loudspeaker to the tap plate with double sided adhesive tape and play Paco de Lucia solo albums through it for a few days... (Show the dog the bone...[:D]) Why would that NOT work? [:-] cheers, Ron

keith -> RE: Tonerite review (May 8 2010 10:57:47)
ron, i would probably want to use some heavy thumping bass music to get the soundboard jumping although i am not sure a good flamenca would want to be exposed to such music. if the goal is to get the saddle/strings/bridge to vibrate using a mechanical device then why not do it as inexpensively as possible. maybe a $20 device with about $5 worth of attaching equipment will work as well as the $150 tonerite? if so, then one has save $125 and can buy some nice sherry, a cejilla, a paco d.v.d. and c.d. and a year worth of strings....i think you get my point. if it does not work, then at least one can deal with the tense neck muscles.

Ricardo -> RE: Tonerite review (May 8 2010 13:15:39)
Guitars that I have tried that I have seen "broken in" get there the quickest from some heavy rumba players. Try any active rumbero's main guitar for rhythm and you will see what i mean. So while I think the idea of such a device is good or "ok" substitute for breaking in guitars, there are some elements missing. 1.Golpe you need to hit the top somehow physically in addition to simply vibrating it. Rumba slaps are great cuz they get a wide area of the "sweet spot" of the top. Bigger hands even better. So how about a robot that "slaps" your guitar while vibrating the strings? 2.vibration of strings is not enough. A guitar that is played with nice tuned chords vibrates different. And the fact certain chords change. I think one trick is use the device but tune your guitar to an open chord of some sort. And probably would be good to to put a capo on for different sessions of using the device so you get those different harmonics vibrating. I think all these elements combined affect the "break in" of the guitar. But this is just my theory.

Ron.M -> RE: Tonerite review (May 9 2010 9:51:54)
quote: So how about a robot that "slaps" your guitar while vibrating the strings? Da "VibroSlap" (tm) [:D] Does it slap your face if you try to take it off before it's finished?[:D] cheers, Ron

Exitao -> RE: Tonerite review (May 9 2010 18:35:20)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M quote: So how about a robot that "slaps" your guitar while vibrating the strings? Da "VibroSlap" (tm) [:D] Does it slap your face if you try to take it off before it's finished?[:D] cheers, Ron Doesn't Doc Johnson or Good Vibrations already have a product with that name? [8D]

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 9 2010 19:24:26)
quote: Nice to see that it works on one and not on another, it gives you something to think about. Do you need to use the Tonerite on a daily basis now, or when it has done his job, just put it away? Actually I believe it would have worked on the DeVoe as well. Keep in mind this guitar has been played hard for years and was well developed. I just don’t think it has any further to go. It’s my understanding the changes are permanent just like a well played in guitar. Some users keep it on low all the time.

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 9 2010 19:29:01)
quote: I may invest in one of those just to see if it increases salability of new guitars, if the buyer's perception is that the guitar is more mature sounding than perhaps a new guitar would be From reading post on other forums, it seems some builders have been using it on new guitars before they send them out. Based on what I have seen, if I were a builder, I would do the same.

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 9 2010 19:59:29)
quote: as i understand this gizmo and how it works, the strings at the sadde/bridge are vibrated. in theory one should be able to use any machine that vibrates. i am curious if a small personal vibrator (not the sex toy variety) would work. brookstone and other similar stores sell vibrators that are large and small and one can get a small vibrator for about $20. it would be easy to attach the $20 vibrator onto the saddle and let it vibrate during work hours each and every day for weeks on end or 24 hours a day for days on end. the point is something like a small personal vibrator could do the trick as well as the tonerite. additionally, one the guitar has opened up one could use said vibrator to relieve achy muscles, etc. here is where i need patrick's experience with the unit. patrick, does the tonerite vibrate in a similar manner as a personal muscle relaxing vibrator? is there something special about the vibrations of the tonerite? Keith, I don’t have an answer if it would work, but it has been tried before. I believe it’s been covered on the Collens forum. Apparently, it works, but don’t know for sure. The unit is sealed so you can’t get into it without destroying it, but my guess is, it’s nothing more than a vibrator. Independent test have shown that in the US it vibrates at the line frequency of 60 cycles. I would assume 50 cycles in non US countries. The thing the Tonrite folks have done is package it into a unit that safely (and easily) attaches to a guitar without risk of damage.

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 9 2010 20:09:12)
quote: Guitars that I have tried that I have seen "broken in" get there the quickest from some heavy rumba players. Try any active rumbero's main guitar for rhythm and you will see what i mean. So while I think the idea of such a device is good or "ok" substitute for breaking in guitars, there are some elements missing. 1.Golpe you need to hit the top somehow physically in addition to simply vibrating it. Rumba slaps are great cuz they get a wide area of the "sweet spot" of the top. Bigger hands even better. So how about a robot that "slaps" your guitar while vibrating the strings? 2.vibration of strings is not enough. A guitar that is played with nice tuned chords vibrates different. And the fact certain chords change. I think one trick is use the device but tune your guitar to an open chord of some sort. And probably would be good to to put a capo on for different sessions of using the device so you get those different harmonics vibrating. I think all these elements combined affect the "break in" of the guitar. So some rich guy can just hire the Gypsy Kings to break in his guitars. [:)] I thought about the capo thing as well. After running it on high with open strings, I ran it with the capo on a few different positions. I don’t know if it made any difference, but it sure can’t hurt. The Tonerite may not be the best way to break in a guitar, but I can tell you my Green is a totally different guitar to the better and I didn’t have to play Rumbas for hours. [;)]

Ron.M -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 4:05:05)
quote: but my guess is, it’s nothing more than a vibrator. Independent test have shown that in the US it vibrates at the line frequency of 60 cycles. I would assume 50 cycles in non US countries. Pat...this is what the advertising says.. "The ToneRite® uses a specific set of frequencies that we have found to be successful in acoustic instruments." So that tends to imply (to me at least) that some research and experimentation has gone into it first surely? I mean it would be helluva coincidental if 60Hz was found to be the perfect frequency for guitars in the US and 50Hz for guitars in the UK etc! When you hold the transducer (or perhaps hold it to the side of your head above your ear) can you feel the thing vibrate? Does the frequency vary in a sequence or is it steady (or sweeping)? Does it feel like 60Hz or a mixture of tones? BTW..Thanks for the review anyway Pat, as I know you have no commercial interest in the product and have long been a collector of top end guitars. So I respect your judgement...but the whole concept still sounds a bit random to me. [:-] I would really have to experiment with it myself to be convinced. cheers, Ron

XXX -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 4:25:33)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M I mean it would be helluva coincidental if 60Hz was found to be the perfect frequency for guitars in the US and 50Hz for guitars in the UK etc! Im sure Patrick was referring to the different frequencies of the electricity line in US & Kanada and outside. If i had to spent 150bucks i would like to have something where you can adjust velocity and frequency to custom settings anyway! Interesting post by Ricardo and IMO true observation about to break in the guitar at different keys and tunings. I once had a guitar which had an extremely boomy note at 4th fret, E string. Maybe this came due to playing it always in a certain capo position?

Ron.M -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 4:40:22)
quote: Im sure Patrick was referring to the different frequencies of the electricity line in US & Kanada and outside That's why I said it would be coincidental if the mains line frequency turned out to be the exact frequency to produce the desired results...and puzzling as to why 60Hz is perfect..oh..and also 50Hz for purchasers outside the US.. If this is the principle it works on then a small 3" high-ish power speaker stuck to the tap plate with double-sided tape and fed from a small transformer would do the same job. Use a wirewound potentiometer if you want to vary the energy. (I thought it contained an amplifier being fed with carefully researched tones and harmonics or something...) "The ToneRite® uses a specific set of frequencies that we have found to be successful in acoustic instruments." So what does that mean exactly?[:-] cheers, Ron

Ricardo -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 7:27:36)
quote: Does it slap your face if you try to take it off before it's finished? Or if you do anything out of compas.[;)] I met a luthier that demoed his models and showed us he tuned the top by having a speaker that played a single frequency (no harmonics) on the board, and he put metal filings on it to see how they gather up in places that did not vibrate so much. G#-A are common notes, and he would file the spot that had too many filings.

kozz -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 7:42:01)
It would have been nice if the Tonerite would have had a sweep than. Sweep from 50 to 60Hz....if you like a more European sound. Patrick, do you have any idea why it works? The old beaten up gypsy rumba guitar didn't seem to improve that much, so what has done the rumba playing gypsies to the guitar? That would be interesting to know in order to understand why this device works or could work. Any idea? quote: I met a luthier that demoed his models and showed us he tuned the top by having a speaker that played a single frequency (no harmonics) on the board, and he put metal filings on it to see how they gather up in places that did not vibrate so much. G#-A are common notes, and he would file the spot that had too many filings. Is that about those chladni patterns? Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 9:03:36)
quote: Pat...this is what the advertising says.. "The ToneRite® uses a specific set of frequencies that we have found to be successful in acoustic instruments." So that tends to imply (to me at least) that some research and experimentation has gone into it first surely? I mean it would be helluva coincidental if 60Hz was found to be the perfect frequency for guitars in the US and 50Hz for guitars in the UK etc! When you hold the transducer (or perhaps hold it to the side of your head above your ear) can you feel the thing vibrate? Does the frequency vary in a sequence or is it steady (or sweeping)? Does it feel like 60Hz or a mixture of tones? BTW..Thanks for the review anyway Pat, as I know you have no commercial interest in the product and have long been a collector of top end guitars. So I respect your judgement...but the whole concept still sounds a bit random to me. Ron. You have to read between the lines. They say the set of frequencies have been found to work. That may mean 60 cycles and 50 both work equally well? Comments from the owners of the company say the input of various frequencies have not been found to be that important. Their belief is the proper transfer of the vibrations to the top is more important. Almost everyone focuses on the frequencies input to the guitar, but their contention is it’s not the most important ingredient. Yes, it vibrates like crazy. It has a simple line voltage rheostat that just adjusts the amplitude of the vibrations. When you adjust it up or down it does seem to change the frequency of the unit, but it may not. It stays at a constant frequency and does not sweep. Yes, it definitely sounds like 60 cycles. On one of the sites that talks about it, some guy ran an oscilloscope on and it was definitely 60 cycles. Keep in mind it also showed input at all multiples of 60 cycles as well (120, etc.). I know where you are coming from with your engineering background, but the darn thing works. I have read everything I can find on the forums and two groups have formed; those that have used it and swear by it, and the ones the say it can’t work, but of course have never used it.

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 9:08:08)
quote: Im sure Patrick was referring to the different frequencies of the electricity line in US & Kanada and outside. If i had to spent 150bucks i would like to have something where you can adjust velocity and frequency to custom settings anyway! Yes...the line frequency. It does have a rheostat that adjusts the voltage to the unit. You can adjust it down to a point you can hardly hear it.

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 9:10:44)
quote: Patrick, do you have any idea why it works? Nope, but it does.

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 9:57:48)
Here is the test results I talked about above. http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=163754

Patrick -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 10:50:52)
OK, Here you go. Just input a MIDI rumba file and away you go. http://www.me.gatech.edu/mechatronics_lab/Projects/Fall00/group3/contents.htm

Exitao -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 10:51:35)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M quote: Im sure Patrick was referring to the different frequencies of the electricity line in US & Kanada and outside That's why I said it would be coincidental if the mains line frequency turned out to be the exact frequency to produce the desired results...and puzzling as to why 60Hz is perfect..oh..and also 50Hz for purchasers outside the US.. If this is the principle it works on then a small 3" high-ish power speaker stuck to the tap plate with double-sided tape and fed from a small transformer would do the same job. Use a wirewound potentiometer if you want to vary the energy. (I thought it contained an amplifier being fed with carefully researched tones and harmonics or something...) "The ToneRite® uses a specific set of frequencies that we have found to be successful in acoustic instruments." So what does that mean exactly?[:-] cheers, Ron Obviously they aren't going to give out more information than they need to. After all, maybe all an eng.geek like you needs is a weighted speaker with some gaffer tape and to know the set set of frequencies in order to jerry rig your own and not buy their product.

Ron.M -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 11:08:44)
Nah Exitao, I personally think Art and Engineering mix like oil and water. I would go for the Uri Geller Crystal method myself... I saw a programme once showing Uri with a big bag of crystals and he was gripping each one of them in his hand and concentrating intensely, focussing pure energy into each of them ready for sale to the public. Although it was only a 30 second video clip, he promised that each and every one of the thousands of crystals would undergo the same personal treatment and I truly believe that. Now.. THAT you cannot do with Engineering, no matter how hard you try.. In fact even Uri himself could not explain how his powers worked..they just DID! You can't just buy a cheap crystal and empower it yourself! You need the powers from a gifted individual, as anyone will tell you. cheers, Ron

kozz -> RE: Tonerite review (May 10 2010 23:41:00)
quote: OK, Here you go. Just input a MIDI rumba file and away you go. http://www.me.gatech.edu/mechatronics_lab/Projects/Fall00/group3/contents.htm Hahaha, should be easy enough to add a golpe-beater to this monster machine [:D] I should have read the website before. They make a very clear distinction: Absolutely. One of the biggest misconceptions that we run across is that the ToneRite is artificically 'aging' the wood in an instrument. It is not. The play-in process and the aging process are two distinct processes that both involve their own physical systems. To put this clearly.... 1. The Play-In Process: The Play-In process involves the individual components of a guitar learning to resonate as a whole instead of destructively against one another. This process occurs due to vibrational energy that is transfered to the instrument effectively de-damping it. The result of this process is added volume, resonance, dynamic range, playability, etc. 2. The Aging Process: While not very well understood, the aging process in acoustic instruments is hypothisized to do with the structure and materials of the individual components of an instrument. Whether it is the crystalline structure of wood, the loss of glue material, or anything else the aging process is separate from the play-in process. Also, aging on it's own will not produce a good sounding instrument. An instrument left fallow for sa period of time without being played will produce a closed and stiff sounding instrument.

kozz -> RE: Tonerite review (May 12 2010 1:55:19)
Patrick, I'll get one, just to see if it works on my guitars. Nothing better than hands-on experience. If it doesn't, than ebay got another item. thanks for you input Patrick!

flybynight -> RE: Tonerite review (May 12 2010 7:34:49)
kozz Would it be possible for you to set up a recording rig, including distance to chair etc. (and not touch it!), record the a short solea or something, before it has been shaken, then record the same thing again afterwards, and then upload both mp3's ? Not exactly scientific, but.. better than nothing. And then we could all judge for ourselves. (And everyone would say.. but you played it louder the second time! etc. [:D] )

kozz -> RE: Tonerite review (May 12 2010 7:45:08)
quote: kozz Would it be possible for you to set up a recording rig, including distance to chair etc. (and not touch it!), record the a short solea or something, before it has been shaken, then record the same thing again afterwards, and then upload both mp3's ? Not exactly scientific, but.. better than nothing. And then we could all judge for ourselves. (And everyone would say.. but you played it louder the second time! etc. ) No probs! I was actually thinking about it how to setup something semi-scientific. Although certain moments of duende cant be excluded ofcourse. [:D] Something like the humidity, distance to mic, temperature, mood, same nail length etc etc etc Last week I'd restructured my hall and it seems to be a nice recording place. I got 3 guitars to experiment with...a cheap factory made, a medium factory made, and a medium-pro handmade. Thats some nice variables also :).

flybynight -> RE: Tonerite review (May 12 2010 7:54:58)
Great! Same time of day too, and another big thing I have noticed is the dryness of the nails.. ie no washing your hands for a few hours, or doing the washing up or anything radical like that. (I just never wash, and just throw dirty plates away and buy new ones) We'll forgive the duende moments.. can't be helped.. [:D]

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