RE: Pulsation (Full Version)

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silddx -> RE: Pulsation (May 11 2025 21:34:56)

quote:

Here's a better article getting at this:
Lutherie Myth/Science: Human Perception of String Tension and Compliance in Stringed Musical Instruments


Thank you, an interesting read that makes a lot of sense.



Ricardo -> RE: Pulsation (May 12 2025 12:07:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

Here's a better article getting at this:
Lutherie Myth/Science: Human Perception of String Tension and Compliance in Stringed Musical Instruments


Thank you, an interesting read that makes a lot of sense.


Further, since you revived an old thread...I had since posted Amalia Ramirez, I believe, clearly stating that this elusive "pulsation" is nothing more than an alternate terminology for "action", as in how it feels over the fingerboard, how quick or fast it responds to your playing. So I have come back full circle, confused that this thing was some elusive quality, rather dubious it even existed as a "thing" on a guitar, and now realize it is the same thing as action. There is still no term for "action at the bridge" which is due to the string height over the soundboard. In both cases "stiff guitars" can become "soft guitars" by simply lowering the saddle, end of story.

As discussed often, the 12-hole tie is a good solution for an old guitar whose neck has come forward and rendered the action limited in terms of lowering the saddle. In many cases a deliberate neck angle for a flamenco set up vs classical, renders a stiff action over the fingerboard but the bridge height is super low and good for the right hand. One can get it down a millimeter or two by conversion to 12 holes so you still have a tiny break Angle when other wise the string at comfortable height would have an angle of ZERO.

Oddly having a break angle of zero does not affect the sound or playability in any way (other than it buzzes and the intonation goes out, hence it is necessary to rectify this). Because the string tying to the tie block is plenty to transport sound vibration energy. You are hardly notice anything once the holes are drilled and tied with that angle down. You only need a small angle to keep the thing from buzzing and being intonated correctly.

Luthiers realizing that this correction to salvage the break angle has benefited a useless instrument, took it to mean more than it does....that the break angle is adding energy to the saddle and beefing up the sound. It does no such thing and building guitars with these extra holes from the outset is a redundant action. They should not be doing it, other than for "looks", exactly the opposite of what the guy was saying. [:D] But for me, symmetry is broken with the look anyway, so it is really not good. Save it for repairs only is my belief.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=313204&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=amalia



estebanana -> RE: Pulsation (May 13 2025 13:33:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

quote:

ORIGINAL: silddx

quote:

Here's a better article getting at this:
Lutherie Myth/Science: Human Perception of String Tension and Compliance in Stringed Musical Instruments


Thank you, an interesting read that makes a lot of sense.


Further, since you revived an old thread...I had since posted Amalia Ramirez, I believe, clearly stating that this elusive "pulsation" is nothing more than an alternate terminology for "action", as in how it feels over the fingerboard, how quick or fast it responds to your playing. So I have come back full circle, confused that this thing was some elusive quality, rather dubious it even existed as a "thing" on a guitar, and now realize it is the same thing as action. There is still no term for "action at the bridge" which is due to the string height over the soundboard. In both cases "stiff guitars" can become "soft guitars" by simply lowering the saddle, end of story.

As discussed often, the 12-hole tie is a good solution for an old guitar whose neck has come forward and rendered the action limited in terms of lowering the saddle. In many cases a deliberate neck angle for a flamenco set up vs classical, renders a stiff action over the fingerboard but the bridge height is super low and good for the right hand. One can get it down a millimeter or two by conversion to 12 holes so you still have a tiny break Angle when other wise the string at comfortable height would have an angle of ZERO.

Oddly having a break angle of zero does not affect the sound or playability in any way (other than it buzzes and the intonation goes out, hence it is necessary to rectify this). Because the string tying to the tie block is plenty to transport sound vibration energy. You are hardly notice anything once the holes are drilled and tied with that angle down. You only need a small angle to keep the thing from buzzing and being intonated correctly.

Luthiers realizing that this correction to salvage the break angle has benefited a useless instrument, took it to mean more than it does....that the break angle is adding energy to the saddle and beefing up the sound. It does no such thing and building guitars with these extra holes from the outset is a redundant action. They should not be doing it, other than for "looks", exactly the opposite of what the guy was saying. [:D] But for me, symmetry is broken with the look anyway, so it is really not good. Save it for repairs only is my belief.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=313204&mpage=1&p=&tmode=1&smode=1&key=amalia



So I’m not going to be able to sell you on the 18 hole tie block?



ernandez R -> RE: Pulsation (May 14 2025 0:35:20)

DRILL BABY DRILL!



estebanana -> RE: Pulsation (May 14 2025 2:48:46)

Really all this reprise of pulsation thread did was make me feel sad that Ronzo is no longer with us. He would have understood why I think Matt Berry is so great.



Morante -> RE: Pulsation (May 14 2025 16:07:16)

quote:

As discussed often, the 12-hole tie is a good solution for an old guitar whose neck has come forward and rendered the action limited in terms of lowering the saddle


This is why flamenco guitars need a truss rod. Neck adjustments can cost a lot: I remberer Reyes asking 200,000 to remove the back and reset the neck of one of his guitars. I said: why not plane the fingerboard. al final he agreed, cabrón
[:@]



silddx -> RE: Pulsation (May 14 2025 18:59:10)

quote:

This is why flamenco guitars need a truss rod. Neck adjustments can cost a lot: I remberer Reyes asking 200,000 to remove the back and reset the neck of one of his guitars. I said: why not plane the fingerboard. al final he agreed, cabrón


Not sure a truss rod would help with neck angle issues, but certainly would with relief. I hate that tubby feeling around the 5-7 frets one gets with even a little too much relief.



estebanana -> RE: Pulsation (May 15 2025 4:37:01)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

As discussed often, the 12-hole tie is a good solution for an old guitar whose neck has come forward and rendered the action limited in terms of lowering the saddle


This is why flamenco guitars need a truss rod. Neck adjustments can cost a lot: I remberer Reyes asking 200,000 to remove the back and reset the neck of one of his guitars. I said: why not plane the fingerboard. al final he agreed, cabrón
[:@]



Dude,

¡Qué coñazo!

Flamenco guitars do not need and should not have truss rods. Truss rods do not adjust neck angle, they simply moderate the string relief in *Steel string guitars, truss rods are not ever necessary in flamenco guitars. Besides the fact that they ruin the balance of the guitar by making the neck too heavy.

What a coñazo way to think 💭 😆



Echi -> RE: Pulsation (May 15 2025 13:19:48)

I never agreed the use of this term as synonym of action, as it means a different concept as many luthiers in Spain are accustomed to.
Action (both at the 12th fret and the bridge) is a determinant factor to change how the strings react the strike, but the point here is that guitars with the same set up and same strings may feel softer or harder under your right hand. Guitars are different because they are born with a harder or softer pulsación. Guitars with the same set up may present a different way to react to the strike, with a different "bounciness" of the strings and so be quicker or slower to come back to their position: In fact this mainly depends from the carachter of the top, the bridge and the bracing pattern.
In other words this concept is about the top breaking spot.

Of course you may adapt to each guitar and in case can play closer to the bridge etc. but in some guitars you just don't have to.



RobF -> RE: Pulsation (May 15 2025 14:26:47)

I think a lot of it has to do with sound being interpreted as feel.



Morante -> RE: Pulsation (May 15 2025 16:32:42)

quote:


Flamenco guitars do not need and should not have truss rods.


Spanish guitar makers are dinosaurs. All over the world guitar construction has improved, but the dinosaurs have to preseve their tradicion[;)]



estebanana -> RE: Pulsation (May 16 2025 3:19:17)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:


Flamenco guitars do not need and should not have truss rods.


Spanish guitar makers are dinosaurs. All over the world guitar construction has improved, but the dinosaurs have to preseve their tradicion[;)]



You don’t understand what a truss rod does. It does not adjust neck angle, it adjusts neck relief, this is not needed on a flamenco guitar.

The dinosaurs lived for 100’s of millions of years, the human in our current intellectual form have only existed for less than 10,000 years. Dinosaurs win.

There are contemporary methods for adjusting the neck angle by adding wood under the fingerboard and planing that wood into the correct taper. Then planing the underside of the fingerboard to arrive at a new neck angle that doesn’t compromise the thickness of the neck or leave an extra thick or thin fingerboard.

The formal structure of the flamenco guitar was reached by Barbero. Nothing needs to be changed. It’s set form, like the violin. There is no new violin, it’s not evolving, the flamenco guitar and the violin have reached the apex of development and are perfect set forms as they are.

The people who think they need improvement are mainly Americans, Australians and Germans, it’s a form of intellectual narcissism to assume you have a better idea than the people that arrived at the flamenco guitar in a land when it developed. The crazy ideas that the Aussies and the Yanks want to superimpose on flamenco come from steel string building tradition, which is completely different. They disrespect the art by proposing these ludicrous changes. The mentality of feeling compelled to change the building culture of the flamenco guitar is tantamount to those who want to hybridize cante Gitano Andaluz with stupid pop music forms like reggaeton or innocently thinking jazz can be integrated into cante andaluz. It cannot be, it breaks the form.

Flamenco guitar form is as set as cante. To try to internationalize it is an insult.



estebanana -> RE: Pulsation (May 16 2025 3:47:02)

Pulse is the root of pulsation. Pulse implies regular meter, or a metrical standard to compare something to. The confusion arises because the term action can imply two things at once. Action on a guitar is a measurement of string height over the frets and at the nut and saddle. The nut has an action, the saddle has an action and the frets have an action in terms of their adjustment to hold the string at a certain distance up from the frets.

Action in English can also imply that this adjustment is optimum or sub optimal, tou can say of the feel perception of the guitar the action is good or not good. The fact is that string height adjustment has subtle effects in the feel. The feel.

Pulsation is trying to describe a situation that’s similar, and this is how I think Amalia Ramirez arrives at her assessment that ‘pulsation’ means action, both physically the height of the strings and the feel. So I can understand the way these two terms can be interchangeable, and thus confusing.

Let’s say we can add a third term to differentiate between action ‘feel’ or string stiffness and recovery time, and action which is a measure of string height. The term is ‘string tempo’.

String Tempo was Eugene Clark’s personal term for recovery time. So when you talk about pulsacion or action you could add the terms ‘string height’ or ‘string tempo’ to clarify which to want to explain.



Ricardo -> RE: Pulsation (May 16 2025 12:07:28)

quote:

Pulsation is trying to describe a situation that’s similar, and this is how I think Amalia Ramirez arrives at her assessment that ‘pulsation’ means action, both physically the height of the strings and the feel. So I can understand the way these two terms can be interchangeable, and thus confusing.


The way I am interpreting it is that the loaded terms "action", "pulsation", "set up", are all affected by two variables:1. neck angle (becomes a constant more or less after construction, but affects the limits of set up adjustments ever after) and 2. string height at the saddle. Bottom line is when you LOWER the saddle, the "action" or ease of play at the fingerboard is affected, and on the RIGHT hand the guitar also gets "easier" or more responsive as the strings move closer to the soundboard.

The idea is some guitars are made with such an extreme neck angle that you CAN'T lower the saddle and even though the right hand is close to the top, the left still struggles and the guitar feels "stiff" etc. What has been put forward is that the WOOD, and not the saddle height can be "altered", as in you can take wood away, and the "action" suddenly gets "easier". I am saying this is an illusion by scooping the mids which gives a false balance of extra bass and brightness simultaneously that is perceived as more "punchy" and responsive, aka "softer" to play. And this result is the elusive "pulsation" of a guitar top or something, when it is no such thing. It is simply equalization that occurred.

So long story short if you want a hard pulsation on a soft guitar, RAISE the saddle. The reverse is limited by the neck angle ie "set up" built in to the guitar design.



Echi -> RE: Pulsation (May 16 2025 12:40:46)

There's a third variable, in the rigidity/flexibility of the anchor point of the strings.
It makes a difference to jump on a rigid floor or on a bouncing kind floor.
The top/bridge is like the floor in the example.
"string tempo" is a good term to explain it, as the category of feel.



Morante -> RE: Pulsation (May 16 2025 16:42:24)

quote:

Flamenco guitar form is as set as cante.


Nonsense.

Flamenco guitars are very expensive to repair.

If I were rich, I would ask Taylor ot Fender to make a flamenco guitar with detechable neck ( and truss rod of course)[:D]



estebanana -> RE: Pulsation (May 16 2025 16:50:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Morante

quote:

Flamenco guitar form is as set as cante.


Nonsense.



Toque isn’t set in stone, but the architecture and building of the flamenco guitar is finished and has been for half a century. You know know so little about the building of these things that you don’t even understand what a truss rod does. Now take your medicine, because you don’t get it right.

You just have it in for guitar makers because you had long extended beef with a certain builder. You’re on the spectrum of customer to never work for. 😂



Ricardo -> RE: Pulsation (May 16 2025 16:54:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Echi

There's a third variable, in the rigidity/flexibility of the anchor point of the strings.
It makes a difference to jump on a rigid floor or on a bouncing kind floor.
The top/bridge is like the floor in the example.
"string tempo" is a good term to explain it, as the category of feel.


even less of a "variable" than neck angle. At least one can plane the fingerboard or something. "please build me a guitar with a soft pulsation, and by that I mean I want the bridge made of balsa wood". [:D]



Morante -> RE: Pulsation (May 16 2025 17:00:21)

quote:


You just have it in for guitar makers because you had long extended beef with a certain builder. You’re on the spectrum of customer to never work for. 😂


I have no beef with any builder and I know more about guitar building than you imagine.



estebanana -> [Deleted] (May 17 2025 2:14:09)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at May 17 2025 11:00:43
Reason for deletion: Personal jibes



estebanana -> RE: Pulsation (May 17 2025 5:54:22)

So what I’m getting is Pulsacion =


The ability of the guitar maker to understand how to set up a flamenco guitar so the player can rip alzapua with no hang ups, hitches or apologies.


Case closed. Let’s retire to the bar.



mark indigo -> RE: Pulsation (May 19 2025 17:51:07)

quote:

Pulse is the root of pulsation.


I wondered if there is anything lost in translation between English and Spanish with the words pulsation" and pulsación" respectively (as with "constipated" and "constipado" or "embarassed" and "embarasada").

For "pulsación" my Spanish/English dictionary gives "(a) beat, pulsation; (Anat) throb(bing), beat(ing). (b) (on typewriter etc.) tap; (of pianist, typist) touch."

Also listed is "pulsar", the FIRST meaning of which is: "1 (a) key etc. to strike, touch, tap: button, switch, to press; (Mus) to play."

Then there follow the more familiar medical, figurative and rhythmic meanings.

Seems in Spanish to have additional meaning relating to playing musical instruments that it doesn't have in English.



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Pulsation (May 19 2025 20:37:34)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
Seems in Spanish to have additional meaning relating to playing musical instruments that it doesn't have in English.


Yes.

From the Diccionario de la lengua española (of the Real Academia)

¨pulsación

1.f. Acción de pulsar.

pulsar

2. tr. Tocar, palpar, percibir algo con la mano o con la yema de los dedos.

3. Dar un toque a una tecla, a una cuerda de un instrumento, a un mando de alguna máquina, etc."

During several years of visiting Juan Pimentel's shop in Mexico City, I noticed that when a new customer seemed serious enough to be invited inside, Juan immediately asked an assistant to bring a guitar to be played.

Pimentel would go back to work at his bench, but occasionally would glance over his shoulder to observe the player.

I don't remember Juan ever using the word "pulsacion" but I once asked him whether he tried to suit an instrument to the customer's "manera que tocar."

Juan raised his eyebrows, as though the answer was obvious. "Por supuesto," he replied.

I tried several instruments he made for Mexico City professionals. They were too stiff for me, though I had developed a flamenco technique. Those Mexican pros seemed to have claws of steel from hours of playing most days, often well away from the microphone.

The medium quality instruments I ordered from him for friends were made with softer pulsación.

Tom Blackshear said his approach was to build guitars that suited his own style of playing. Tom played flamenco professionally for 17 years, but by the time I knew him his hands were stiff from lack of practice, and maybe arthritis. From what little I saw him play it was clear that his right hand attack may have been a bit stronger than mine. He set the strings low at the 12th fret, even for classicals, but he strongly advised the use of high tension D'Addario EJ-46s.

RNJ



John Ray -> RE: Pulsation (May 20 2025 7:47:45)

quote:

Case closed. Let’s retire to the bar.


Stephen, I have been waiting in the bar for about 4 years. Get a move on.


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=336813&p=3&tmode=1&smode=1



estebanana -> RE: Pulsation (May 20 2025 10:13:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Ray

quote:

Case closed. Let’s retire to the bar.


Stephen, I have been waiting in the bar for about 4 years. Get a move on.


http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=336813&p=3&tmode=1&smode=1



Cheers my dear Canadian colleague, I’ll either come to your country or you to mine but someday we’ll have drinks.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Firefrets -> RE: Pulsation (May 20 2025 17:32:22)

Do you get sent to the naughty room if you were to dare point out that turning the truss rod does indeed effect the neck angle, and playing action, as a result of the relief change, even if it's purpose is just to set the relief? [sm=lol.gif]



silddx -> RE: Pulsation (May 20 2025 17:50:21)

quote:

Do you get sent to the naughty room if you were to dare point out that turning the truss rod does indeed effect the neck angle, and playing action, as a result of the relief change, even if it's purpose is just to set the relief?


Is this for me or Stephen? I said I wasn't sure of the effect on neck angle, a truss rod certainly affects the angle of the nut end of the neck. It also affects the string height. But if the overall neck angle is too far forward or backward I can’t imagine a changing the relief will help much with getting optimum playability.



Firefrets -> RE: Pulsation (May 20 2025 19:11:39)

It was just random. Lots of things effect / rectify neck angles, but the biggest culprit by far is a neck with too much relief. It's when the neck is straight but the angle is out that you have a problem.



silddx -> RE: Pulsation (May 20 2025 19:38:36)

I feel I have both problems on the '96 Conde I bought recently. I think it had an accident at some point. There are a couple of splits on the tapa underneath the fretboard. And a transverse veneer was loose on one side. That was reglued by Stephen Frith and he said the neck and fingerboard are rock solid and not to worry about the tapa splits.

I took a video of the area. It looks a bit of a mess to me.

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oHI-dBzqN5g

But there's still a bit too much forward tilt to the fingerboard and too much relief for me. Lot of fall off on the last 5 frets too. The saddle is as low as it will go, and the action is a tad over 3mm with medium tension strings. I get a little annoying buzz on the A and D too. I tried it with a higher saddle and the guitar sounded good and no more string buzz at the saddle, but with a 3.5mm action.

It had a refret fairly recently but they are quite small frets. I think a fret level under tension may help but I'm thinking the fretboard could use a replane (it’s 6mm all the way) and obviously a refret. It's worth doing I reckon, the guitar sounds really really nice to me and fits me well. And I think I got it for a good price. It was a performer's guitar for 20 years, it's had the top refinished (I think it was red once), and almost certainly converted from machines to pegs.

Sorry, I’ve gone off topic.



Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Firefrets -> RE: Pulsation (May 20 2025 22:11:09)

Shaving a new angle in to the board is a viable solution on the right guitar. It's invasive though, not just because you're removing material, but also that 5 angles are effected.

The 2 to be aware of are your headstock angle, and the break angle behind the nut. Often the strings will hit the headstock afterwards, particularly on a guitar with rollers.

I've done it a handful of times to guitars that needed it, but on old guitars especially, I'll often consider heat, in order to maintain originality, and avoid the above.

Often I'll look for gains in as many areas as I can get them, so as to lessen the effect of a single process.

Even if you make the neck so strong that it can't possibly bend, the body is still vulnerable, so you can't win long term. Something has to give, right?



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