RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Full Version)

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Ron.M -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 8 2010 19:17:35)

Hey Leo-Tiriti...

Why not have a warm up period when everyone turns up for practise...like football training.

That is, folk don't show off their individual stuff or stuff that they do in performance, but say take a quarter of an hour with everybody just doing palmas together with the guitar?

Thing is that when you criticize someone doing their own stuff that they think is good, they take offence.

A group "togetherness" session eliminates that and encourages team work.

Just a thought.

cheers,

Ron



at_leo_87 -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 8 2010 19:38:18)

quote:

That is, folk don't show off their individual stuff or stuff that they do in performance, but say take a quarter of an hour with everybody just doing palmas together with the guitar?


hey ron, that's how we currently practice. the problem is, the palmas will then "hide" behind the guitar. it's a bit difficult to explain but if you ever watch a beginner guitarist play to solo compas or beginner dancers play palmas to solo compas, you'll sometimes notice a "chasing" feeling. it's sometimes ahead or after the beat, never really on.

with a solo compas cd, you can't influence it. but for me, it really throws me off, especially when it's loud.

another issue besides timing, is that there's absolutely no groove or pulse. just a bunch of smacking of hands together.

[:@][:(]



Ron.M -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 8 2010 19:50:19)

Yeah Tiriti...

I understand now amigo....that is a problem..[&:]

Being "spot on" in Flamenco is ultra-important to sound good as a group.

cheers,

Ron



XXX -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 8 2010 21:31:26)

on a sidenote... are you sure nobody is reading your thread? [8D]



at_leo_87 -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 8 2010 21:41:33)

quote:


Being "spot on" in Flamenco is ultra-important to sound good as a group.


now only to convince the others. [:D]

quote:


on a sidenote... are you sure nobody is reading your thread?


they're dancers. only us guitar dorks have time to be on a forum. [:-]



mezzo -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 8 2010 22:01:46)

quote:

exactly! tell me about it! everybody just wants to do the crazy, fast, loud stuff, all day long.

[:D] I thought it was just a guitarrista syndrome

quote:

but when i'm play falsetas or doing my solos, that's when it goes to hell. when i pound out the accents, they can follow it. but otherwise, things get really bad.

why not try to play these falsetas with each one of them individually and so identify which has a more pronounced sense of rhythm. Then that person should be the reference which others have to look if they get lost.



at_leo_87 -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 8 2010 22:23:17)

quote:

why not try to play these falsetas with each one of them individually and so identify which has a more pronounced sense of rhythm. Then that person should be the reference which others have to look if they get lost.


but then they would just get used to that one falseta. but everything else would still be off. it may be better to just get to root of the problem. very complicated issue. [:(]



KMMI77 -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 8:05:32)

You have to just keep going and practicing together. If you want to work hard and improve you need to practice with people who want the same. It sounds like the others are happy with what they are doing?

There are plenty of ways to help each other without being hurtful. When you are practicing and there is no groove use i statements, "Hey guys, I am having trouble making this sound groovy. Lets try again." This is enough to make people try their best. This is the most you can ask for really.

There is no quick fix. Having solid compas takes years and years of practice. You can even all be in time with a metronome and still not sound groovy.

An important characteristic of being a good musician is being sympathetic to other peoples development. I know that you are btw hence this thread. They have to develop in their own way and in their own time.. Enjoy playing together and encourage people when they do something good.

However if someone is continually doing something really badly drop back on the guitar and expose them. Give solid accents but force them to fill the space in between. Without covering for them they will be forced to improve or look silly. Dancers can be hard to accompany if they stomp out of time. Don't give them a wall of sound to hide behind.

And avoid yelling OLE! when it's not right. I hate seeing flamenco groups who do that.



CarloJuan -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 8:46:03)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77

And avoid yelling OLE! when it's not right. I hate seeing flamenco groups who do that.


It adds to the flamenco experience [;)]

OLE!!!! [:D]



XXX -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 8:49:54)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KMMI77
If you want to work hard and improve you need to practice with people who want the same.


Good stuff needs good people. I have gone through all phases of "expecting to much", "helping where i can", "doing their work" to "shutting my mouth and just play and try to make the best out of it". But it got better with time i have to admit.

quote:

they're dancers. only us guitar dorks have time to be on a forum


I actually though we a talking about palmeros here? But ok your decision, in my case, being in germany I think not many people would bother reading an english forum.

Maybe it could serve as a tip: if you have the possibility to include another "musician", ie somebody who is really interested in the musical side of things, then your voice would have a greater impact. If they are actually DANCERS who clap every now and then, then you cant expect too much sensitivity regarding tightness/rhyhtm/speed ups. Or you be more patient and wait 1, 2 years.



CarloJuan -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 8:52:49)

I have a suggestion, how about recording your palo and put it in playback so that YOU and the palmaseros and dancers could all do palmas together with you leading them, teaching them how to feel the groove and compas.

When i was starting flamenco, i honestly thought...sheesh...accents on 3, 6, bla bla...ya ya i get it. It's not it. Shamefully, i got rid of my arrogant egotistical self (hopefully) and started to internalize compas the way it should.

And boy was it HARD. Assimilation is the word. Assimilation of the compas takes years and years of listening, practicing flamenco. Explain it to your fellows that compas is the heart of flamenco. The driving force and main ingredient, essential to each.

It should be solid, solid i tell you!!!!! [:D]

Best of wishes and God bless m8

Carlo



mark indigo -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 14:24:01)

quote:

An important characteristic of being a good musician is being sympathetic to other peoples development.... They have to develop in their own way and in their own time..


good point, people are at the level they are at. I have a long way to go to get where I want to be, and I work on stuff all the time. I really like playing with people better than me 'cos I get to listen and watch and learn. I also have no problem with people who are beginners or lower level and learning, or people on a similar level who are open to learning and developing together. The problem can be when people learn a little, and then think they already know it all, and aren't interested in developing further[&:]

quote:

If they are actually DANCERS who clap every now and then, then you cant expect too much sensitivity regarding tightness/rhyhtm/speed ups.


if they can't hold a rhythm with their hands, how will they hold a rhythm with their feet? or with their feet and hands combined?



mark indigo -> [Deleted] (Oct. 9 2010 14:26:52)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Oct. 9 2010 14:27:26



XXX -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 14:36:04)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mark indigo
if they can't hold a rhythm with their hands, how will they hold a rhythm with their feet? or with their feet and hands combined?


They could, but in speed ups (dance) for example they would do the changes very drastically and kind of "hectic" (dont know if its the right word in english), having only few levels of speed ups (say three between medium and fast instead of 10 or 20). Its like a picture with a low resolution, its less sharp and accurate than a picture which has alot more pixels and nuances.

But there are also dancers who can do palmas very well of course!! Its just in general those who have problems dont care too much about accuracy of palmas so that often they dont even realize they are just a hair too slow or fast. They focus more on dance i guess...



at_leo_87 -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 15:10:17)

quote:

You have to just keep going and practicing together. If you want to work hard and improve .... when it's not right. I hate seeing flamenco groups who do that.


thank you for the excellent advice, kris! i always try to be sensitive to other people's levels. it comes easy to me. i've even played with dancers who were just plainly out of compas. but i just followed them and made them look good. the only problem, like mark pointed out, is when they think they're at a a level where they dont have anything else to improve on. and it makes it worse when they try to blame it on me. of course, i make mistakes. but mistakes are different than things that needs a total makeover.

quote:

If they are actually DANCERS who clap every now and then, then you cant expect too much sensitivity regarding tightness/rhyhtm/speed ups. Or you be more patient and wait 1, 2 years.


yup, we're not talking about palmeros. just dancers who do palmas. 1 or 2 years is a long time. even then, i dont think it'll improve without someone pointing it out.

quote:

I have a suggestion, how about recording your palo and put it in playback so that YOU and the palmaseros and dancers could all do palmas together with you leading them, teaching them how to feel the groove and compas.


this is a great idea. and i thought about recording stuff, and pairing that same track with solo compas, a plain metronome, and nothing at all, so that they can practice at home. you cant argue with a recording that you know is in compas.

quote:


if they can't hold a rhythm with their hands, how will they hold a rhythm with their feet? or with their feet and hands combined?


i always think this. some people refuse to do palmas in class. i always think they're crazy.

quote:

But there are also dancers who can do palmas very well of course!! Its just in general those who have problems dont care too much about accuracy of palmas so that often they dont even realize they are just a hair too slow or fast. They focus more on dance i guess...


yeah i dont think they realize palmas needs it's own dedicated practice time.



orsonw -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 17:43:04)

Just to give you some hope, thankfully not everyone needs to lean on a guitarist.







at_leo_87 -> RE: i don't want no speeding ticket! keeping tempo in a group... (Oct. 9 2010 18:04:13)

thanks orson. ole! [:D]
wow, i love montse's voice.



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