Antonio Torres (Full Version)

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Michael1917 -> Antonio Torres (Apr. 22 2010 13:22:33)

Are there any luthiers out there who make exact copies of the Antonio Torres guitar from the 1880s? Anyone you could recommend? Thanks




GuitarVlog -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 22 2010 13:34:02)

Kenny Hill makes copies. He did one particularly accurate copy once with an identical set of tuning machines and the same wooden case that was used for a museum Torres.

http://www.hillguitar.com/showroom/guitars/2662cypresstorres.html
http://hillguitar.blogspot.com/search/label/Torres
http://www.hillguitar.com/website/catalog/master_series.html

Torres made several designs in his First Epoch and Second Epoch (what collectors classify as FE and SE). Make sure you know which model you are looking for.




Alonte -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 22 2010 15:44:09)

John Ray

http://www.guitarsalon.com/product.php?productid=3515




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 22 2010 23:37:21)

I´d love to build you one. I´ll even give you a 10% discount.




Estevan -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 23 2010 15:48:03)

Jesús Bellido:
http://www.bellidoguitars.com/




nhills -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 23 2010 15:58:05)

http://mysite.ncnetwork.net/resr7g3w//




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 24 2010 11:07:47)

http://www.guitarsalon.com/product.php?productid=3363

RNJ




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 24 2010 13:16:23)

A question that comes up is "What is an exact copy?"

Since every piece of wood is different, you could precisely duplicate the dimensions of a Torres guitar, yet end up with a different sound. Other approaches include tuning the top and back to the same tap tones as Torres did, duplicating the main air resonance, etc. Since lutherie is an art, not a science, there are a lot of possibilities.

At a dinner party, Torres was requested to pass on to posterity his secrets of making the greatest guitars of the era. Torres smiled and said his secrets would have to die with him, since they resided in his thumbs. What he meant was that he judged how an instrument would sound by flexing the wood as he worked it. No doubt he tapped it and listened to the result as well.

RNJ




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 24 2010 23:50:43)

Yes, I know that story as well, and it means that in the case that Torres would be the one to copy his own guitars, he would trust his thumbs more than any meassurements he could make with a meassuring tool. And that maybe the guitar he was copying would have a soundboard 1,8mm thick while the copy would end up with a 2mm thick soundboard and that in Torres way of working, that would be a more correct copy than making the soundboard 1,8mm

Thats the standard Spanish approach to guitarmaking, and the one I work myself. The most important thing is to respect the tonewood you are working with. In the end, its what is going to sound.




Stephen Eden -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 25 2010 0:05:38)

I would think every guitar maker under the sun has at least once paid his respects to the master and produced some form of replica. I do a nice smallish bodied torres guitar [;)] where the shape is the same.




estebanana -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 25 2010 13:08:51)

yep, I have a small bodied guitar plantilla that I designed in the "spirit" of Torres rather than make an exact copy. I've built it once in Maple and it turned out very well. It was sold to a player who turned out to be a total douchebag who talked me down right before my rent was due and then turned around and sold the guitar to a local collector for several hundred more dollars a few months later.

I would like to find this guitar and hear how it changed, but every effort I've made to locate it has failed. It was about five years ago.....

Anyway, I think the Torres bench copies are kind of stale personally. I like the concept of putting oneself in the mind set of Torres and his contemporaries and making a guitar that has the style of the era, but not an exact replica of any individual guitar. I think that it's entirely plausible to study Torres' construction and details enough to make a guitar that could have been yours if you had lived in the same town at the same time as Torres and you sneaked a peek inside his shop. I prefer the idea of trying to get inside Torres' head, so to speak, to make a copy the same way Anders describes Torres making a copy of himself.

So to put a post deconstructionist spin to it, Jean Baudrillard would have said about a guitar built this way; that it is a simulacrum of something imagined, and the instrument imagined was copied time and again by the person who imagined the "original". ( Or perhaps Borges would have said that, but for arguments sake let's just imagine some hardcore mid twentieth century intellectual said it or once thought it up.)

In essence, if a guitar is an Antonio Torres, it's a copy of a copy. So all guitars by Torres are simulacra, or a copy of something that never existed, because if Torres copied himself exactly he would have been making replicas of his own guitars, but each of his guitars are unique works. Each guitar Torres made was different from the one he copied which makes them inauthentic because a copy of a copy is a simulacra and if he did not replicate his own work perfectly it is the realization of something half imagined and half built by rote.

Thus any single Torres guitar replicated once and perfectly by a modern guitar maker is in fact more authentic and less removed from Torres than a guitar by Antonio Torres, which was merely a copy of a copy, of a copy, of a copy ad infinitum.

And there you have the Torres Conundrum.
______________________________________________________

Personally I can't think up a more egregiously boring pursuit than to replicate in
exactitude a Torres guitar. The more fun way of acquiring a unique Torres guitar would be to create a Torres pastiche. A pastiche because it would be a mash up of specifically Torres characteristics and the "spirit" of Torres could be more fully imbued into the guitar because it would be made much the same way Torres himself worked, by making copies of Torres'.

What would Torres think was more clever: An exact replica of one of his works? Or a unique guitar that could have been made by himself as he copied himself?


_____________________________________________________________

What is a replica of an object made by a man named Antonio Torres? Is it a symbol of connoisseurship? A place holder of cultural values as the result of the expression of connoisseurship? Would a replica of any object made by the man named Antonio Torres hold the same cultural status, or only select objects of the same type and function?

Would the hairbrush of Antonio Torres have the same cultural gravitas as an object authored by Torres? Or is cultural significance only granted to the utilitarian items used by performitist cultural icons such as Liberace?

Is Liberace's haircomb equal in cultural place holding value to a Torres guitar? If so, would replicas of Liberace's haircomb be more desirable as markers or symbols of good taste and connoisseurship than replicas of an object made by the man named Antonio Torres?

______________________________________________________________

And what of the unknown craftsmen who created the hairbrushes of both Torres and Liberace? Is the conception and realization of a hairbrush any less noble or valuable than playing the piano or the making of a decorated wooden box?




Jeff Highland -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 25 2010 13:17:41)

I like the way you think Estebana...........I think.




Doitsujin -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 25 2010 13:39:58)

Just a command in between.

Isnt it strange... Playing good guitar is extremely hard. I guess on 100 people who play or own a guitar 0,001 person can really play it...




johnguitar -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 26 2010 14:47:16)

I can't argue with Anders or with Estebanana: the best guitars are made when an experienced guitar maker uses his knowledge, intuition and natural talent to do the best work he can. That is what Torres did and what many makers are doing today. Some are making guitars just as good or maybe even better than Torres did. I believe that working in the spanish tradition makes for the best guitars, but that is just an opinion. What is impossible to deny is that there is a lot to learn from studying a Torres and there is a market for copies. My personal experience is that trying to copy certain aspects of antique instruments (aspects usually not detailed in plans) really teaches you a lot.

John Ray
Granada




estebanana -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 26 2010 15:36:26)

Hey John,

I was being halfway silly and halfway serious about all I said. I agree that a study or knowledge about Torres in someway or another is important to building in the Spanish way.

I can't help poke a bit of fun at the idea that a Torres copy is in part built as a symbol of prestige or connoseurship for a player or collector. I agree that it's quite possible with how much Spanish building has progressed without diverging too much from what Torres was doing that some makers can build guitars which may be better than Torres.

The idea of slavishly making a bench copy of a specific guitar still sounds tedious to me. I'm all for studying the details and little problems an solutions found in older guitars. I find it one of the best tools for teaching yourself and that it's not only good for making a Santos model be Santosy, but that it helps make my original work be more refined and subtle.

I do find it difficult to get past the idea that you can build anyone else's guitar except your own and that in the end any Torres copy is really the copyists guitar in Torres clothing. It seems to me making every part an exact copy right down to the dimensions of every single glue block would make a fine guitar, but what makes it more like Torres is really more about the spirit of how it was made more than the precise replication of each individual part.

Torres had mannerisms and favorite ways of resolving problems, I prefer to study how he did things like lead the bindings into the heel on the back or how he used proportions; how thick did he make his veneer lines in a rosette. I think one can assimilate as many of those small things as possible and build by freely letting those traits come into the guitar as you build it. It seems Torres worked this way as he improvised and adjusted his ideas and aesthetics constantly. For this reason I think that Torres style guitars made through close study and then filtering the information through your own nervous system and intelligence make a truer version of Torres, than a precise mechanical reproduction. A replica does not allow, or allows to a lesser extent, discovery though the building process. Seeing that evidence in a Torres guitar, that he did discover as he worked, is in large part what makes his work so compelling.

I often see guitars where you can tell the builder has profoundly absorbed Torres and I get great satisfaction knowing that they saw what Torres was doing and assimilated it in their own building. Then I see a precise replica and can't quite bring myself to have the same feeling of wonderment about it, something about the spirit of the instrument gets lost in translation when it's created as a picture perfect copy.

That's just my notion on the situation of copies and copying.




jshelton5040 -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 26 2010 16:32:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I do find it difficult to get past the idea that you can build anyone else's guitar except your own and that in the end any Torres copy is really the copyists guitar in Torres clothing. It seems to me making every part an exact copy right down to the dimensions of every single glue block would make a fine guitar, but what makes it more like Torres is really more about the spirit of how it was made more than the precise replication of each individual part.


For once I agree with you Stephen. I've tried to copy guitars to get their distinctive sound and the copy always ended up sounding like a Shelton-Farretta. I gave up on copies years ago although trying to make a copy is potentially a learning experience I suppose.




Jeff Highland -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 26 2010 16:49:30)

If we don't at least aspire to produce a better instrument than a 150 year old Torres or a 75 year old Martin, what is the point.
All respect to the innovators who have gone before, but they did not get every aspect of guitar design "perfect" whatever that means to you.




estebanana -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 26 2010 17:24:28)

You mean you don't always agree with me? I am shocked!




jshelton5040 -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 27 2010 14:42:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

You mean you don't always agree with me? I am shocked!

I suspect you are on of those rare people who can enjoy the company of a loathsome foul tempered old man and we would be great friends if we ever met but that doesn't mean I have to agree with what you say.[:D]




estebanana -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 27 2010 15:16:51)

My other thought in this subject is about forgeries. Forgeries are so much more interesting than copies. The psychology of the forger is fascinating in and of itself and lends a layer of interest to a copy passed off as authentic.

Has anyone ever heard of a Torres fake being found? I would think it would be near impossible to pass off a faux Torres as authentic.




nhills -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 27 2010 16:21:14)

http://www.vintageguitarmagazine.com/features/brands/details.asp?AID=1148




estebanana -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 27 2010 17:08:45)

Long article in which Brune' gives all the things you would have to do to fake a Torres!

He seems to be fixated on the glue squeeze out, and the difference between Santos, Manuel Ramirez' and Torres' glue squeeze out. That alone would be a very difficult detail to recreate.




Andy Culpepper -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 27 2010 17:59:40)

quote:

He seems to be fixated on the glue squeeze out, and the difference between Santos, Manuel Ramirez' and Torres' glue squeeze out. That alone would be a very difficult detail to recreate.


Yeah, very interesting stuff. You'd have to get the glue to craze somehow..

Insta-Craze Glue™ - The Instrument Forger's Standby since 1897 [:D]




estebanana -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 27 2010 18:19:37)

I bet Brune' took DNA samples from each of the glues of all the great guitar makers and stores them to authenticate old Spanish work. Like a guitar CSI.




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 27 2010 23:25:53)

This can be used...

I will from now on sell my guitars saying:

"Living so close to Sevilla, where master builder Antonio de Torres created his fantastic instrument, has given me the chance to learn how to copy his glue squeeze out. It has also taugh me the importance of the influence of western Andalucian air and environment in learning to copy this very esential detail of a high end guitar"

From now on, those of you living further away from Sevilla are out, finished, done.

Well, besides, that I still find that copying a guitar can be a very interesting process and I have tried some Torres copies which I really liked a lot. It is a very expressive guitar model.




estebanana -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 28 2010 0:06:04)

Very funny Anders, but can you discern between Torres' Almeria period glue squeeze out and his Sevilla period glue squeeze out?




Andy Culpepper -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 28 2010 8:12:16)

I think Ramirez's main mistake was he was too anal about finishing out the inside of the guitar and fitting everything just right [:D]




Anders Eliasson -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 28 2010 9:44:03)

quote:

but can you discern between Torres' Almeria period glue squeeze out and his Sevilla period glue squeeze out?


Of course, its all in the air, Mediterranean sea versus Atlantic sea creates a big difference in glue squeze out.




Richard Jernigan -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 28 2010 10:25:38)

More than 20 years ago, maybe 30, an LP came out by a very well known female classical guitarist. On the front there was a photo of the guitarist, with a guitar, in Rose Augustine's living room. The music was Tarrega, the guitar supposedly Torres' "La Leona". The playing and recording were both superb. The guitar sounded great. Unfortunately, according to Romanillos, the guitar wasn't "La Leona". It wasn't even by Torres.

RNJ




estebanana -> RE: Antonio Torres (Apr. 28 2010 12:06:35)

La Leona has been used for recording recently by an Austrian guitarist.......I'll think of his name......that guitar does sound good.

One reason to make a Torres would be to make a copy of that particular guitar because it does not have a saddle. The bridge is more like that of a lute where the strings come straight out of the slots. That might be fun to mess around with.

Check out these fantastic pictures of La Leona's bridge. ( work through the whole section on Torres on Wulfin Lieske's website, it's worth it) Here we go:

http://www.wulfin-lieske.de/english/antonio-torres/index.html

Don't miss the photo of the interior that shows the glue squeeze out!




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