Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Full Version)

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a_arnold -> Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 18 2010 18:53:56)

I have 2 friends who own guitars with this raised fingerboard. Look at the one on the right in this page to see what I mean:

http://www.stevenwalterguitars.com/models.html

THere are several other classical makers that have the same feature. These guitars are INCREDIBLY loud. The bridge is quite high, and the strings (and neck) are at a steep angle so they pull the top UP rather than parallel to the top. Looks weird, frankly, but wow. Loud is not the word.

A rasgueado was overpowering. Very easy to play above the 12th fret. Lacked mellowness, but the intonation was even throughout. The really outstanding feature was the loudness and projection. It almost didn't sound like a guitar.

So my question: Has anyone ever made a flamenco model like this?



chapman_g -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 18 2010 19:23:53)

Well just last night I presented Meng Su and Yameng Wang in concert here in Pittsburgh PA. Classical Guitar that is. These girls played two Cedar Top guitars by German Luthier Mathias Dammann and the guitars had that elevated fingerboard that Thomas Humphrey I think started. These girls can really really play, and the guitars sounded very beautiful, and full and round, and yes very loud filling up the venue more that I have heard in the past. But 2 main problems I think make these type guitars not very suitable for flamenco. The strings were very high over the soundboard, over the fingerboard was okay, but over the soundboard was quite high. Second, I really liked the sound of the guitars for the music they played big, warm, full and clear, but not very percussive, not a lot of bite and attack. I also don't care that much for Piano in flamenco, and these guitars are definitely heading in that direction in terms of sound.

Oh, this idea was discussed here previously: http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=112288&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=raised%2Cfingerboard&tmode=&smode=&s=#112510



estebanana -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 18 2010 21:58:10)

Those young women really shred.

Raised fingerboard guitars suck for flamenco because you'll kill yourself doing the index finger thwack golpe above the soundhole. Among other things.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 18 2010 23:59:15)

quote:

Raised fingerboard guitars suck for flamenco because you'll kill yourself doing the index finger thwack golpe above the soundhole. Among other things.


I totally agree
Flamenco is about finger contact with the soundboard. The golpe superior would be horrible on a guitar like that, but even more important, the thumb contact with the soundboard is very important and this you do all time and on a guitar with raised fingerboard, it would be impossible. To this add that on normal golpes you´d have to ake a much bigger right hand movement.

In total, thumbs down to raised fingerboards



vangelis -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 2:47:31)

....i dont understand why this guitars are much morre louder than parralel fingerbord modells.

...is the stringpressur lower so the top is much thinner than normal??

thanks



chapman_g -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 4:23:09)

quote:

Flamenco is about finger contact with the soundboard. The golpe superior would be horrible on a guitar like that, but even more important, the thumb contact with the soundboard is very important and this you do all time and on a guitar with raised fingerboard, it would be impossible. To this add that on normal golpes you´d have to make a much bigger right hand movement.


Ricardo has a solution for this problem use a 3mm thick wood golpeador[:)]



chapman_g -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 4:32:58)

quote:

....i dont understand why this guitars are much morre louder than parralel fingerbord modells.

...is the stringpressur lower so the top is much thinner than normal??

thanks

It's not anything to do with the fingerboard really I don't think. It is because the strings have been raised and set much higher over the soundboard than traditional guitars so more torque more volume I guess, and then the fingerboard has to be elevated in order to make the darn thing playable. But playable for classical does not equal playable for the various Right Hand flamenco techniques. The Dammann guitar did sound really good though for classical, not the sterile sound I have heard from some Lattice Braced guitars. It really had a nice voice to go with the big sound. But, Disgusting to play. I would never buy one.



aarongreen -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 5:54:33)

Not all elevated guitars are created equal. Thomas Humphrey's vision was to change the angle of the strings to the soundboard to create more upward pull. This design is not ideal for flamenco at all for reasons stated above.

Greg Byers solution was to plane the upper bought down at an angle thereby creating the space for the elevated fretboard. The idea is that the neck to body relationship is the same as a standard guitar. He is a classical builder primarily so I don't know what he considers "normal" in terms of the forward angle of the neck and the string height off the soundboard.

I have been building my own version of elevated fretboard guitars and I have incorporated Greg's idea of tapering the upper bought as to maintain the same neck body relationship. I don't feel it necessary to have as high an elevated board, I end up with something more like 15 or 16 mm at the 12th fret . The string height off the soundboard is the same as my other guitars, not only at the bridge but at the waist, where the taper begins. Since a number of the guitars I build are flamenco guitars and I am aware of the needs of the flamenco guitarist, I can say that when you take this approach to how you elevate the fingerboard, it will be perfectly suited for flamenco guitarist's right hand needs.



chapman_g -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 6:35:59)

quote:

I have been building my own version of elevated fretboard guitars and I . The string height off the soundboard is the same as my other guitars, not only at the bridge but at the waist, where the taper begins. Since a number of the guitars I build are flamenco guitars and I am aware of the needs of the flamenco guitarist, I can say that when you take this approach to how you elevate the fingerboard, it will be perfectly suited for flamenco guitarist's right hand needs.


But Aaron, not trying to be negative here. I really just want to understand. What would be the point then? I really interpreted this approach more of a getting greater volume out of the guitar by having the strings higher over the body of the instrument rather than a lefthand accessibility issue. Creating more upward pull as you mentioned. So if you negate that with your approach, what is the benefit?



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 6:38:00)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aarongreen

Not all elevated guitars are created equal. Thomas Humphrey's vision was to change the angle of the strings to the soundboard to create more upward pull. This design is not ideal for flamenco at all for reasons stated above.

Greg Byers solution was to plane the upper bought down at an angle thereby creating the space for the elevated fretboard. The idea is that the neck to body relationship is the same as a standard guitar. He is a classical builder primarily so I don't know what he considers "normal" in terms of the forward angle of the neck and the string height off the soundboard.

I have been building my own version of elevated fretboard guitars and I have incorporated Greg's idea of tapering the upper bought as to maintain the same neck body relationship. I don't feel it necessary to have as high an elevated board, I end up with something more like 15 or 16 mm at the 12th fret . The string height off the soundboard is the same as my other guitars, not only at the bridge but at the waist, where the taper begins. Since a number of the guitars I build are flamenco guitars and I am aware of the needs of the flamenco guitarist, I can say that when you take this approach to how you elevate the fingerboard, it will be perfectly suited for flamenco guitarist's right hand needs.


Aaron, doesn't this procedure change the tone and articulation to some extent?

I find it hard to imagine that a flamenco guitar would adjust to such a measure, and then we have a change of traditional course that stands in stark contrast to where we are with the absolutes in flamenco.

As a player of flamenco for 50 years, I find it even more unimaginable that left hand technique would be preserved in its original state.

Classical technique is nowhere near that of flamenco with its many various styles, and all of these styles would have to be taken into account with any proposed change.

What have you to say about this?



aarongreen -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 8:23:09)

Hi Chapman,
The benefit of the elevated fretboard, IMO has always been one of playability, or access to the upper frets for those who need it (ie chord progression, arpeggios as opposed to just single note runs). Certainly from Tom's approach there are other things that are changed by having the strings come down at such an extreme angle, but increased volume isn't inherently one of them. However it is a radical change and that opens up some avenues for exploration that could yield a loud guitar. Please note I did not say louder as that would be making broad assumptions about how the same guitar would sound in a more conventional set up. Such a discussion is really speculation more than anything else.

Hi Tom,
What can I say? In my experience I have not noticed a huge shift in how the guitar turns out as relative to my intention. I have to disagree with your comment re classical technique. The players I deal with are no less interested in how the guitar plays as they are in how the guitar sounds. I don't see any absolutes in any of this. If I were to make some general blanket statements they would be as follows-

For golpes you need the strings closer to the top not only at the bridge but between the bridge and soundhole. That remains unchanged, and is part of the overall design when I am building a guitar for a flamenco guitarist.

Most flamencos prefer a tighter pulsasion and lower action than classical players like (in terms of pulsasion) or can put up with (in terms of lower action). In both cases the elevated board is a no thing. It does not preclude anything, you can alter the neck angle and fingerboard thickness to your heart's content to come out with whatever end result you desire. Your results may vary but this is what I have come up with.

aaron



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 9:06:18)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aarongreen

Hi Tom,
What can I say? In my experience I have not noticed a huge shift in how the guitar turns out as relative to my intention. I have to disagree with your comment re classical technique. The players I deal with are no less interested in how the guitar plays as they are in how the guitar sounds. I don't see any absolutes in any of this. If I were to make some general blanket statements they would be as follows-

For golpes you need the strings closer to the top not only at the bridge but between the bridge and soundhole. That remains unchanged, and is part of the overall design when I am building a guitar for a flamenco guitarist.

Most flamencos prefer a tighter pulsasion and lower action than classical players like (in terms of pulsasion) or can put up with (in terms of lower action). In both cases the elevated board is a no thing. It does not preclude anything, you can alter the neck angle and fingerboard thickness to your heart's content to come out with whatever end result you desire. Your results may vary but this is what I have come up with.

aaron


When you say " I have to disagree with your comment re classical technique. The players I deal with are no less interested in how the guitar plays as they are in how the guitar sounds."

Just thinking about this is mind numbing :-)

I'll leave this for someone else to figure out since I have my own ways of building. I find that keeping a thick board all the way to the 19th fret is a good advantage.



aarongreen -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 10:02:37)

Sorry about that.

I agree, its best to stick with your way of doing things if it works for you. Certainly a thick board up to the 19th is great, I prefer to thin mine out on my blancas though to keep it lighter, that and I don't have as much up angle on my necks to allow for a real thick board.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 19 2010 11:40:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: aarongreen

Sorry about that.

I agree, its best to stick with your way of doing things if it works for you. Certainly a thick board up to the 19th is great, I prefer to thin mine out on my blancas though to keep it lighter, that and I don't have as much up angle on my necks to allow for a real thick board.


I agree that there will always be some compensations in building guitars and that there will be several ways to do it :-)

I used to build with a tapered board before 1984 but changed it due to Pepe Romero's request to Tim Micklaucic at GSI, that I build a Rodriguez style board, which was the same thickness for his playing purposes, at that time.

The tapered board worked for me too, but I saw some advantage in several areas of building and playing technique by switching to a even thickness fret board.

Then I viewed the 2003 Reyes flamenco, (Up Close); like the Miguel Rodriguez style, and this confirmed to me the idea that Flamenco guitars are traditionally OK with it.

I've seen plenty of even boards on many other guitars over the years but it didn't sink in until I put it together with the Rodriguez and the Reyes styles.

I will say one thing, tapered boards are a lot easier to build, imo. There aren't all these other facets/measurements/building techniques to worry about :-)



chapman_g -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 21 2010 5:38:41)

http://www.desmondguitars.com/petrovich.shtml

Reasonably well known classical guitar luthier with his version of a flamenco guitar with raised fingerboard.



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 21 2010 7:21:51)

quote:

ORIGINAL: chapman_g

http://www.desmondguitars.com/petrovich.shtml

Reasonably well known classical guitar luthier with his version of a flamenco guitar with raised fingerboard.



Good grief! The man is not a flamenco guitarist but his elevator music is good. What can I say, this is not inclusive for flamenco music. The guitar's voice seems to lack certain elements in its character for Duende. Bob is a good guitar maker but I don't think he dwells that much in the flamenco idiom. This is about the finer and deeper details of the music and its developed nuance. You can't get it with this much alteration, imo.

If there was a way not to have to trade off certain propio sello, then fine, but to construct additional facets to a ancient tradition that has been settled in its original form, is to play havoc with the heart and mind of the people who have been there and done that.

Music does change but its intent should be the same. If construction is compatible with the intended musical form, then we have no problems. Sorry but I don't see it in most of the new age techniques that have been experimented with recently, especially for the flamenco guitar.



aarongreen -> RE: Anybody ever seen this in a flamenco guitar? (Apr. 21 2010 7:26:42)

A cutaway and elevated board seem a bit of overkill IMO. Also from the butt shot you can see the strings are coming down at a rather steep angle. If the guy he built it for likes it then mission accomplished.....but I don't think most flamenco guitarists would find it acceptable.



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