break angle changing tone? (Full Version)

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HolyEvil -> break angle changing tone? (Apr. 16 2010 1:03:40)

hey there guys.. I noticed something on my new guitar from changing the way I tie the strings, thus increasing the break angle..
I noticed something in the tone... It started with very flat (maybe 5 degrees?) to about 10 degrees now..

I don't want to say what it is. but has anyone noticed that? I'll mention what I noticed after I hear what you guys think...

am I just imagining things?? lol

cheers



estebanana -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 16 2010 7:54:33)

Break angle at the saddle should be 10 or 11 degrees. Shallow break angle does not enable the bridge to work at it's most efficient rate of conducting string energy. ( which in a guitar is not much, a lot of energy is lost because guitars are not very efficient to begin with.)

If you had a 5 degree angle and increased it to 10 chances are the guitar has a bit more power and is more potent sounding overall. That of one reasons to convert 6 hole bridges to 12 holes, the break angle increase helps leverage more energy to the bridge that a shallow break can't.

That said I've ended up with more than 11 degrees break angle and it was fine, but at a certain point it has been noted by many builders, there are diminishing returns. A break angle has an optimum zone, it's generally accepted that 11 or 12 degrees is good, a little more won't hurt.

There are instrument makers who have engineering studies on this.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 16 2010 23:33:41)

quote:

Break angle at the saddle should be 10 or 11 degrees.


Why 10, 11 or 12 degrees? Why not 20 or 25 degrees?



krichards -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 16 2010 23:39:45)

I wouldn't like to put a figure on it but insufficient break angle means less volume in my experience.
But with increased angle more energy( and force) is transmitted to the bridge.

After a certain angle it makes no difference: enough is enough, but each guitar is a little different.



estebanana -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 17 2010 10:11:23)

Compared to 5 degrees 11 is a lot better. I've made them steeper, I don't usually calculate a certain degree of break angle into the bridge because the height of the saddle effects break angle. So if you get at least 11 or 12 you're in the ballpark. If you end up with more break angle as often happens with a 12 hole tie block then the guitar just has a little more built in power. It seems to me from doing it both ways.

So to say that it should be 11 or 12 is what I would consider the minimum of what is a successful break angle. I don't see a necessity of making the break angle 20 to 25 degrees because so many other factors are in play. There is a point of diminishing returns and some threshold at which too much break angle could have a negative effect. I've never tested that limit to get a hard a fast answer. For the purpose of someone re knotting the strings at the tie block to get a steeper angle, shooting for 11 or 12 is probably as good as it's going to get without redrilling the string holes to lower them in the tie block.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 17 2010 10:27:15)

On my #1 I screwed up by making the tie block to wide, and I also ended up with the saddle a little high (10 mm), making the break angle pretty steep.... I'm not sure it gave me a lot of extra power but the guitar is very clear sounding.



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jshelton5040 -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 17 2010 13:09:16)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Why 10, 11 or 12 degrees? Why not 20 or 25 degrees?

I think you already know the answer Anders. Obviously when a break angle becomes very steep it changes the geometry of the bridge causing more pull on the saddle toward the fingerboard. It negatively affects the sound of the guitar, causes string breakage and rapid wearing of the saddle.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 18 2010 1:59:00)

Yes, but 10, 11 or 12 degrees is VERY little, or as Estebanana says in another post that its the minimum.
Its just so typical foro and internet thing to say that something has to be THIS way. (10 -12 degrees breakangle over saddle in this case) It makes it sound that guitars with more breakangle are wrong and thats not true, so I´m glad that Estebanana corrected himself. And I agree with what he wrote in his second post.
All my guitars have more than 12 degrees. 25 or 30 degrees is not affecting the sound and the position of the sadlle in a negative way.
Here I talk about new guitars. Because normally the neck settles a bit, and the holes in the tie block get worn, meaning that sadlle height will be less and thus breakangle will be lower as well.
10 degrees on a new guitar is very flat and with age you can easily end up with problems from the strings moving to much over the saddle and loosing volume and projection.

Deterresa: Your breakangle is not to bad. Another thing is that 10mm setup height is a lot for many players including myself. But on the other hand, I also know players who dont care. Besides, with time, you might lower the saddle 0,5 - 1mm and the stringhole will get worn a bit and you´ll end up with a very good breakangle and a better stringheight. Not to bad for a first guitar.[;)]
Also, I havent seen your fingerboard and it might be possible to shave it a bit, making it thinner at the soundhole compared with the nut and this way you might be able to lower string height some 1 - 1,5mm.



jshelton5040 -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 18 2010 10:10:27)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

Yes, but 10, 11 or 12 degrees is VERY little, or as Estebanana says in another post that its the minimum.

All my guitars have more than 12 degrees. 25 or 30 degrees is not affecting the sound and the position of the sadlle in a negative way.


Deterresa: Your breakangle is not to bad. Another thing is that 10mm setup height is a lot for many players including myself. But on the other hand, I also know players who dont care. Besides, with time, you might lower the saddle 0,5 - 1mm and the stringhole will get worn a bit and you´ll end up with a very good breakangle and a better stringheight. Not to bad for a first guitar.[;)]


Anders, I wrote that note without thinking. Of course you are right that 20-30 degrees is fine; however there is a point where too much break angle causes the problems I described above. It's usually caused by a tall saddle.

I'm convinced that there is an ideal angle for each guitar which can be achieved by making all your bridges exactly the same and adjusting the taper in the fingerboard to arrive at the ideal saddle height. I haven't the faintest notion what the angle is on our bridges but it works fine.



estebanana -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 18 2010 11:44:52)

On a the format of something like the Foro is often when we are writing a response we get casual with the answer. The banter becomes like off handed shop talk which then gets ascribed to that person as their written in stone gospel.
With that in mind I've been trying to not to get testy about little things because over time reading other guitars makers comments you get the sense that everyone here is basically on the same page, but yeah guitar makers are naturally testy. I think it's part of the job description.

That said, yesterday I measured three guitars I've made and the break angles are 15 to 20 degrees. Some I have made have been more, but I agree with Anders about a building in some over compensation as the string holes wear.

This is one of the little things that we do, but we don't articulate it verbally because it's like many guitar making tasks we have internalized. If you work like I do, which means through a combination of intuitive reasoning, factual accumulation and muscle memory, you have a lot of knowledge you don't verbalize until you choose to write about it on the Foro.

I find this very stimulating because I'm realizing ways of talking about what I do when I am shut into my little insane guitar making cave. It's given me pause to think about my processes and realize just how much information needs to be synthesized to actually make a guitar.

Please carry on, I am through contemplating my navel.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: break angle changing tone? (Apr. 19 2010 0:06:11)

The best thing about this foro, is that when someone says something to square, there´ll be someone else saying . ¿¿What??



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