Guitar Longevity

Guitar Longevity (Full Version)

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minordjango -> Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 1:07:04)
ola folks , Have been browsing some guitars for sale , i often see the old ramirez 1a blue/red lable ,or of more interest to me possibly is a cedar Manuel Ballido guitar early 70's. id love a new one but cash !!! the M.Bellido i really love the sound and heard a few lads playing them in Spain, always awesome, does any one have such a guitar and have any ideas on when there used by date could be , vague question , as i have no idea, cheers for anyhelp!.

RobJe -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 4:33:53)
Players used to say that flamenco guitars did not last. As these guitars take such a beating this might not be surprising! Also the light construction could over the years result in non-cosmetic defects such as excessive doming of the soundboard round the bridge area leading to playability problems. However even guitars which appeared to have no obvious physical defects were believed to have lost their edginess and become a bit too mellow. Professional guitarists in the 50s and 60s seemed to need a new guitar at least every 2 years. My feeling as a rather old player is that modern flamenco guitars are generally more robust. Cedar top guitars that have survived physically might well sound much as they did when they were made. A new good spruce guitar is very exciting to play and I still think that the initial edginess is eventually lost. I am probably alone on this forum in believing that so-called “opening-up” of guitars is a partly mythical and mainly due to the player learning how to get the best out of a guitar. All the great guitars I have owned from new of been great right out of the box. The less good guitars have remained stubbornly less good. The oldest guitar I have bought was a 44 year old Viuda y Sobrinos de Domingo Esteso. It needed a refret and at the same time a very small amount of reshaping of the fingerboard to restore the action. Perhaps it doesn’t have quite the same edge as when it was new but it is still a very fine guitar. If I didn’t want to spend too much money I would go for a second hand luthier built guitar over a new cheap factory guitar every time. I would however need to examine the guitar very carefully first. ROb

Ron.M -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 5:22:43)
quote: I am probably alone on this forum in believing that so-called “opening-up” of guitars is a partly mythical and mainly due to the player learning how to get the best out of a guitar. No you're not RobJe..[:D] I know guitars "open up" because I've read that they do and everybody else tells me so, probably because they've read or have been told the same thing too. I have no idea if they do or not, but your point sounds equally valid to me. Anyway, I doubt if I would ever buy a guitar that I wasn't truly happy with on the promise that it would "open up" in a few months. Puts me in mind of the time (when I was young and foolish) when I got an Irish Gypsy tarmac gang to resurface my drive, since they offered me a good price because "they had just finished a big job for the Roads Department and had a bit of spare left". When they finished, I pointed out that there were "waves" in the finished job and was reassured by the "foreman" that.."oh that'll be no problem, to be sure Sur, ...it'll all 'bed in' after a few days....just wait and see...it just needs time to settle..mark my words...besides, we give a 10 year guarantee on all our work..." When I told them in that case, maybe they could come back in a few days and I'd pay them then...well, I was basically told to pay now, unless I liked Hospital food.[:D] Of course after a few days it was exactly the same....worse in fact...because the tar started coming away in lumps! I would have taken them up on their 10 year guarantee, but unfortunately I had no phone number for them and they had no permanent address... [:D][:D] Happy days! cheers, Ron

minordjango -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 5:31:23)
excellent information Rob, really appreciat your honest answer and time. i also have 2 other guitars which have been in storage and really on their lastlegs, ill have to post upsome stuff regarding repairs. thanks again rob. just saw a M.Bellido for 1500pounds - and it be a dream to have one , i love the sound. J. Bellido guitars i havent seen yet there all getting so expensive !

RobJe -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 6:13:15)
Ron - being from the UK you probably remember "Are you being served?" where customers trying on clothes that were obviously too big were told that they would "ride up with wear"! I seem to remember last time I expressed doubts about "opening up" on the foro someone told me there was something wrong with my ears - perhaps they will improve with time! MJ - I don't know much about 70s M Bellido but I do have a couple of MBs myself (90 and 96) and a friend has just bought another (87). Although they differ considerably in internal construction they all have what I consider the typical MB feel and sound which I love. In terms of quality I rate them in descending order as 90, 87, 96. Rob

Ron.M -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 6:33:19)
quote: customers trying on clothes that were obviously too big were told that they would "ride up with wear LOL! or if they are too tight, they will "ease" with wear! If something is too light it will "darken as it weathers" and if too dark, will "gradually lighten up with sunlight". I've even heard of Electronics stores telling customers complaining that they have an intermittent fault, (like the picture sometimes disappearing on their TV etc) that it's because "the equipment is too new and needs time to get properly run-in". (No kidding!) Anyway...after my tarmac experience I've always been very wary of "time delay improvements". In saying this..you are unlikely to get this sort of treatment from a reputable instrument maker or shop, but folk get guitars from all sorts of places. cheers, Ron

minordjango -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 6:40:19)
Ron always in good spirits !![:)] are you being served thats a classic, good old English comedy. Nice to hear the Feedback, on the M.Bellido, just the rare opportunity i have had to play one its like wow !! i mean i can barely p;ay any flamenco, but i love the sound and look, and an 80's era one could cost mmmmmmmmm around 3000 Euro ,a fellow in Granada said ! thats going to have to wait until im about 114 years old [:-] or i guess i could put my lego set down and get a job [:@] envious of you're guitars ! how to express the typical sound of a bellido , depth , and a big boom , love it anyhow , if his sons are like it , and a lot cheaper who knows one day, even a classical i heard was unreal for flamenco

RobJe -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 6:56:09)
By the way - if you saw the £1500 Bellido in London a few weeks ago it could be the one my friend bought! Rob

minordjango -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 7:28:25)
ah really ? i saw some in granada (Local teachers) and there is a fellow tring to sell one , not sure where in the UK though, its an early 70s, sure looks fine , haven't played it though. nice to know there are a few in the UK, i was just thinking in Granada a lot of the players were all playing conde media luna's orange finish , nice to have a few different colours of guitars to stare at

krichards -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 23:33:23)
quote: I am probably alone on this forum in believing that so-called “opening-up” of guitars is a partly mythical and mainly due to the player learning how to get the best out of a guitar. No you're not alone. I've made this point before on the forum and was roundly opposed. I know my guitars take a few months to settle down when newly made, but after that its much more likely to be down to the player. But everyone believes this myth. There's not a shred of evidence to support it, just anecdotes and constant repetition of the myth.

Anders Eliasson -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 6 2010 23:50:53)
Of course there are evidence. If you have a new guitar for many years, and after 2 - 3 years it starts sounding slightly different, not only in your ears but in everyone elses years, Thats the kind of evidence you can get from something as abstract as is musical instruments. Normally the main changes are within the first year of a guitars life. And especially the first 3 - 5 month. Mainly, they become more subtle and responsive, stronger in the higher register and with better projection And of course, a good guitar should sound well when new. Opening up doesnt mean that a poor guitar will en up being a fantastic one

RobJe -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 0:40:56)
I sugested "opening up" is "PARTLY mythical" to allow the possibility that there is something going on that I find it difficult to detect. I can detect that my guitars feel and sound different on different days (probably due to atmospheric changes) and that they sound and feel diffferent in different acoustic environments. So to be fair and balanced here are some possibilites that might exist individually or in various comibinations. (1) Guitars really do open up some some (difficult to define) degree (2) Disappointed owners of new guitars sometimes try to convince themselves that their guitars have improved. (3) Owners change their technique and learn how to get more out of their new guitars. (4) Sellers make claims and promises that might not be justified.

XXX -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 2:14:14)
There are ways to exclude points 2 to 4. Point 2 contradicts itself, because if im disappointed i am not happy with the sound. That would speak against a mindset that believes in opening or experiences an improvement. 3, You can exclude technique in playing something that requires no technique (strum xx2100 E chord with the thumb to check brightness of trebles). And point 4, i think no serious, dedicated musician is going to trust anybody except himself when it comes to spending some thousands on a guitar which will hopefully accompany him over years. For the first time i bought a new guitar and yes i realized opening up. I always had my old second guitar with me to compare. First the trebles were not as bright as my old guitar, but that changed. Having said all that, there is also micro-changes that happen from day to day, which overlaps the long term effects, and also the guitar seems to need a several days of break in, if it had not been played for days.

Ron.M -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 4:54:57)
quote: also the guitar seems to need a several days of break in, if it had not been played for days. ....or maybe the player needs time to get used to the guitar again to play it to maximum effect? cheers, Ron

a_arnold -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 5:18:32)
quote: Normally the main changes are within the first year of a guitars life. And especially the first 3 - 5 month. I agree with Anders there. I have owned gat least a dozen quite good guitars over the years, and I was never really sure any of them improved with time, but recently I got a Salvador Castillo and (for whatever reason) I played it obsessively during the first year, and for the first time I really noticed a bid change. So I was a skeptic, and now I'm a believer in this idea that a guitar "plays in."

a_arnold -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 5:36:33)
quote: Players used to say that flamenco guitars did not last. They also said that classicals didn't last. Here is the reason Huber gives in his book: Back in the 1930's, Segovia's favorite gut string maker ended up "behind enemy lines" in Nazi Germany, and the strings became unavailable. Segovia went to Dupont and persuaded them to give him some miscellaneous nylon string -- fishing monofilament, tennis racket strings, etc. and he talked Augustine into starting up the nylon string industry. Before that time guitars had been built to withstand the lower tension gut strings, but Segovia changed that forever. People followed him and started putting the higher tension nylon strings on their old guitars that had previously been gut strung, and the guitars couldn't take it. Some actually came apart, others just started sounding dead. People thought it was age. It was the higher tension. But that is what started the mythology that good guitars have a "use by date." It was just all the pre-30's guitars that were ruined by nylon strings. But higher tension also means more volume, so Ramirez (and then others) started making guitars that would stand the tension. They were noticeably louder than their predecessors -- loud enough for unamplified performance in concert. That was why Segovia put his beloved Hauser aside and switched to Ramirez. Since then, much of the science of guitar design has become focused on increased volume and projection. Some say, at the sacrifice of tonal quality.

XXX -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 8:44:58)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M quote: also the guitar seems to need a several days of break in, if it had not been played for days. ....or maybe the player needs time to get used to the guitar again to play it to maximum effect? No matter how well you get used to the guitar, you will not be able to change its sound. Besides, i dont need much break in to strum an E chord [:D][;)] I mean, those of you that did not experience this, how many hours do you play with one particular guitar per day? At which volume? I even noticed a break in of my old, 2002 built guitar, after having played loudly in dance classes or with dancers in general. Before i got in contact with dancers i didnt experience any break in of my guitars. Maybe its the dancers that create a certain aura of improvement to everything that is in their near? No seriously, playing loudly makes a difference to the breaking in of a guitar.

Ron.M -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 10:03:20)
Don't worry, Deniz...I'm not trying to "diss" you here...[:D] I must admit, trying well-played guitars of professional players...yeah, they DO feel a lot smoother and responsive than trying a new guitar at a shop. Maybe they selected the guitar because it felt that way from the start...or maybe it was a bit "stiff" to begin with and the constant playing has made it that way? If I were a Scientist providing crucial evidence and professional expertise in a court of law, I honestly would have to say I don't know. cheers, Ron

Richard Jernigan -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 10:34:32)
It's generally true that a good guitar will sound good when new, but there have been a few exceptions in my experience. A friend had a Spanish professional pick out a new mid-70s Gravina Conde blanca and ship it to him in the USA. The workmanship was great. I played the guitar a few times when it was new. It had the sonority of a yellow pine two-by-four. It was really dead. I felt sorry for my friend, but never said anything to him about it. Within less than three years the Conde had opened up into a splendid instrument. It was one of the few guitars I ever liked better than my '67 Ramirez 1a blanca. My friend was playing more classical than flamenco at the time. I tried to buy the Conde from him more than once, but never succeeded. Some guitars do open up over time. At least one transformed from a really bad guitar to a great one. But I wouldn't buy a bad sounding guitar hoping it would open up into a good one. I have since bought a guitar that I like notably better than my Ramirez blanca. I like it better than a friend's Manuel Reyes Sr, but I'm fairly sure he would like his Reyes better than my Arcangel Fernandez blanca. RNJ

XXX -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 10:57:40)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ron.M Don't worry, Deniz...I'm not trying to "diss" you here...[:D] But im trying to diss you [:D] No really, we're just discussing right? No probs on my side. I dont know a more scientific method either, except to simply buy a guitar, play it several hours loudly per day, and then check it again after some months. I could be wrong but i think 9 from 10 guitars wont sound the same. You could even make somebody play it to you in the beginning and end, to really exclude certain "getting used to" effects from the player side [;)] quote: "Flamenco is so emotionally direct that a trained classical musician would require many years of highly disciplined formal study to fail to understand it." thats genius, i love it! [:D] But was this hypothesis checked under scientific methods???[:-]

Ron.M -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 11:33:38)
quote: I dont know a more scientific method either, except to simply buy a guitar, play it several hours loudly per day, and then check it again after some months. But Deniz, There you have at least 3 variables... The Guitar, The Player, The Listener...without even going into all the subsets of these variables. Four or five times a year I get some very nice people knocking on my door asking me if I am aware of the good news that the Lord Jesus Christ is risen. Now, not for one moment do I believe they are "fakes" or people trying to con me or are trying to make any money or anything.... These are honest, genuine people....but that doesn't mean I should accept their philosophy simply on the single fact that they are honest and genuine and trying to make me aware of the "truth".... See what I'm saying here? cheers, Ron

n85ae -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 7 2010 13:35:14)
My Negra had a strong tendency to sound dull and thuddy for the first year I owned it. It does not do that anymore, it sounds crisp pretty much all the time now. This I didn't just imagine it definetly change quite a bit after a year of playing. My Blanca sounds different as well not not so much like the Negra. Both are Pedro De Miguel's Jeff

krichards -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 8 2010 0:02:16)
quote: Of course there are evidence. Not really evidence Anders, just anecdotes Evidence requires data collected from properly conducted experiments, with careful measurements. We don't have that, we just have opinions and individual experiences which are conflicting. Its actually very difficult to think of a meaningful measurement we could make. The question is just very complex. We'll never get the answer but we'll always have something to discuss on this issue. Anyway, here's my anecdote: I used to have a lovely Yairi classical guitar and I played everyday. But life became very busy, too busy. Three children, house renovation, busy job etc and stopped playing (and making) for a long time, 15 years or so. Finally the kids grew up and the house got finished and I had more time and I picked up the old Yairi again. It sounded like ****. And thats strange because guitars are supposed to get better with age right? Anyway I started daily practice and after a few months the guitar sounded beautiful again. Now why was that?

XXX -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 8 2010 2:27:31)
Ron, can you proof that your Anders sounds better than the cheapest classical guitar? I mean there are 3 variables... [;)]

Ron.M -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 8 2010 3:12:16)
Well I thought that video of Grisha trying out all those (variously priced) guitars was interesting. I suppose the only reasonably practical experiment would be for someone to make a recording of a new guitar after having a few hours to get used to it. (Something simple like a few basic falsetas showing some basic rasgueado, pulgar, picado, alzapua.) The guitar is then given to ANOTHER guitarist to use for the next 3 or 4 months. (Or even subjected to "Tonerite" therapy) It is then recorded again by the original player (after having a few hours to get used to it) using the same brand of strings, playing the same falsetas and recorded under exactly the same conditions. It would be probably best for the recording to be carried out by an independent, experienced Engineer (such as ToddK etc) and the whole experiment to be overseen and verified by an independent witness who has no interest in any particular outcome. The two recordings or videos could then be uploaded with any date-stamps removed so that there is no indication of which is "before" or "after" and see if there is any popular opinion amongst members. Would be interesting to do and would clearly be a step ahead of anecdotal accounts, which is all we have at the moment. cheers, Ron

XXX -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 8 2010 5:21:41)
You only read what you want to see i guess [:D]

Ron.M -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 8 2010 5:25:12)
quote: You only read what you want to see i guess That's why Legal documents are so precise. [:D]

gj Michelob -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 8 2010 7:07:02)
quote: The two recordings or videos could then be uploaded with any date-stamps removed so that there is no indication of which is "before" or "after" and see if there is any popular opinion amongst members. All my instruments are (i) meteoropathic, shifting moods as the barometer forecasts. They turn withdrawn and unfriendly, muted by weather precipitations and permeating humidity; conversely, they respond gleefully when comforted by the drying sunshine and its warmer temperature. (ii) megalomaniac, as they seem comfortably at home under the high ceilings of spacious rooms, while grudgingly reserved when invited to speak in confined rooms. And finally they are (iii) jealous-attention-seeking-insecure-spoiled-brats, requiring undivided devotion, raucously enraged by any distraction caused by competing instruments. My guitars are inconsistent, like I am, after all. Any experiment should encompass these variables or yield unreliable results. -edit: although I do realize item n. (iii) may exceed your typical scientific approach… [;)]

estebanana -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 8 2010 10:53:53)
Guitars do open up and change over time. It is fact. Enough guitarists, violinists, cellists etc. over the last 450 years have observed the phenomena that instruments open up and change over time. The real question is not why or how, but do you have enough experience with instrument to be able to understand the difference between a guitar or violin... to intuit an instrument that is more than an instant gratification guitar. Is the instrument a dud or is it simply built properly and tightly enough to be loose and responsive when it opens up? It's easier to build or judge an instrument that is under built and "open" in the beginning than to try to calculate how tight a guitar has to be made to allow it to bloom over time. If a guitar is built too open to begin with it may become weak or compromised as it ages because it did not have enough meat built into so that when it dries out and shakes loose it still has guts. A guitar that is difficult to play or seems tight at first or seems to have a a closed voice in the midrange or trebles can open up as the instrument gets to know itself and all the constituent parts act in harmony through being vibrated together. That does not mean a guitar should sound like it has no mid or trebles, but it's like green fruit, it has flesh, but it is not ripe yet. How do you tell those guitars? Experience, time, heartache, practice, talking to old people who have played for 45 years, all that. Guitars can last a long long time if they are built and cared for. Some players do want a more aggressive guitar and prefer a young sound, but they also may just get bored with the same guitar and want to change for the sake of exploring a new instrument. It's kind of like a married person having an affair that turns into a new relationship. the old spouse might not be worn out, and may even be working better with time. However since men are men, and a new guitar is like Viagra for some dudes so it's natural for them to want to eat all the candy in the store. It's a fact that men like to have hard ons and it's a fact that they like to change guitars. They will find any excuse to have both. It's just biology and a guitar has it's own biology, which is if it is tightly constructed it will get better with age. Thank you, that will be 150.00 dollars U.S please. I take pay pal and major cards.

cathulu -> RE: Guitar Longevity (Apr. 8 2010 11:19:03)
Well, I also think guitars opening up is a bit of a bllcks. If a guitar is made with properly cured wood, then there will be more sound variation depending on seasonal humidity changes than any anectodal changes from the guitar opening up. Now if the guitar is really old, like more than a few decades old, then perhaps some changes have occured. I know my old house had very hard 2x4 that were very hard to nail into, but that is probably the quality of the wood and not the cheap fast grown 2x4 you find today. But I also suspect some wood hardening occured over the decades. But within a couple of years due to playing? forgetaboutit. That is my opinion.

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