RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Nov. 23 2004 14:32:58)

Yes, I think it's boring. I don't want to go to a concert and see solo guitar unless it's Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, or Manuel Barrueco. The guitar is not an orchestra, the guitar is merely one instrument. In fact it is an instrument with an almost identical range to the human voice, so a guitar on stage is similiar to someone singing acapella!

I do like guitar with palmas/percussion, or with bass, or with another guitar, or with a singer, or with a dancer, but a guitar by itself is background music. I know, because I play it. I can play my most energetic pieces, which means they have rhythmic strumming, and some people may perk up. But you hit a bongo four times and people will start tapping their toes.

Don't get me wrong--that's what I do, I play solo guitar. I've had--what 18 gigs this month? And all but 3 of them were solo. Two of the others were duos, and one was a quartet. There is an amazing differnece in energy between groups and solos. Sure, if you're a wildman you may be able to keep people's attention for awhile, but it's not easy! I play Panaderos Flamencos...you'd think that'd get people's attention... but not really.



Jon Boyes -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Nov. 23 2004 15:47:57)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Yes, I think it's boring. I don't want to go to a concert and see solo guitar unless it's Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, or Manuel Barrueco. The guitar is not an orchestra, the guitar is merely one instrument.


If solo guitar is boring, why do you do it? What drives you if 90% of your gigs are solo guitar? (BTW I agree that the general public feel this way, its one of the main reasons I play mostly with backing).

Personally, I think solo flamenco guitar can be a beautiful thing. Yes of course I'd pay good money to see Vicente, Paco etc, but the player doesn't have to be in the world's top ten for me to enjoy it.

I still disagree with what you said about dynamics - maybe you are using the word metaphorically or something, but in my book instruments and the way they are played don't come much more dynamic than the flamenco guitar. Anyone who has tried recording it will vouch for that one.

Jon



Jamey -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Nov. 23 2004 16:31:33)

For me it's all good. Just me and my guitar. I converted a small bedroom in my house into a study and have all of my stuff in there. The acoustics in there are excellent. Playing a rodeña late at night to me can be an almost magical experience. For me it's where I find solace, it's calming and to a large extent, therapeutic. It doesn't matter what I'm trying to play, I just enjoy it and I do it only for myself, not for public shows or anything. I suppose performing for unappreciative (or marginally appreciative) crowds can take away some of the joy of playing, turning it into a job of sorts. Eventually I will take up my friends offer and join him in accompanying dance classes, but that's mainly as a learning experience (nothing better than that to drill compas into your head) for me more than putting in time as an accompanist.

Mike, do you think that perhaps you're feeling that flamenco (or rather some of the palos) are getting stale for you because of the audiences you're playing for (and the frequency lately with which you've been playing for them)? If you were playing for flamenco audiences, people who "get it", do you think perhaps that you'd enjoy it more, that you'd find more interest in the other palos? I'm asking honestly, I'm curious to know what kinds of things contribute to feeling that flamenco can become boring or stale or just generally not very enjoyable.

The only thing I don't like......castanets......something about the clacking sound gives me a headache. Palmas are fine, castanets....they just bother me. I used to think that I hated Sevillanas because I always heard it and had seen it performed with castanets. Then I learned to play one and because there's nobody in that little room with me clacking away on those things, I found I liked Sevillanas after all.
[&:]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Nov. 23 2004 16:45:53)

I think solo guitar is fun to play, but not fun to listen to.

I don't get bored at my gigs...well, very rarely. In a way, it's performing, and in a way, it's practicing and experimenting with details of your stuff. Like...I have hard time working on expressiveness and dynamics at home, but at my gigs I do that stuff and it's fun. It's different every time. But solo guitar, or solo piano...or solo harp for that mattery is just not a very lively thing. It's very hard to energize a room with just one guitar. In fact, it's too much work. If you've ever gone into a room where there is just one guitarist or a pianist, you will notice that it's a very relaxing, (or could be thought of as boring) atmosphere. But if it's a pianoist and a singer, or two guitarists, or a guitar and a percussionist, then you have a different kind of feeling, a lot more energy and vibe. That's all I was saying.

That's one reason I've been working on my singing... maybe I'll start singing for my cocktail hour type of thing, and then shifting to just guitar for dinner crowd.

As far as dynamic, Jon, try sitting in a crowded, loud room with just your guitar and keep an appropriate energy and dynamism for an hour or two. It's a bit of a feat, really. I know I keep mentioning energy and that might seem funny or seem like I'm burnt out. But the fire in flamenco is mostly in its group context. One guitarist can only do so much. I didn't mean by my comment that the flamenco guitar does not have a good range of volumes, sounds, and moods. It's just too thin for some situations (but still better than classical!)



Mark2 -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Nov. 23 2004 16:52:55)

Ron says he has a tape of Paco that is exciting-I have no doubt. But Ron, you specifically excluded Paco as part of your question. Paco is not Boring! He's amazing! But even he doesn't play solo anymore, and of course he could.
I really think the commitment of the player is essential. If the player believes in what he's doing, really loves the music, that gets transmitted to the audience, and can lead to a successful solo concert even without Paco like chops. But take that player, and that audience, and give them years of hearing singers, and years of playing for dancers or seeing good dance, playing for cante, playing with palmas, and then the solo flamenco guitar may seem rather lacking in many cases. So for me it's a matter of degree. Yes, the guitar is beautiful, and a single flamenco inversion played can conjure an image of profound emotion. But put one "advanced student" player in a concert hall and have him play an hour of flamenco guitar, and unless he is exceptionally good, I'm out. Doesn't mean that I don't enjoy playing solo at home, or listening to the pros.



Barney -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Nov. 23 2004 18:18:25)

quote:

The guitar is not an orchestra


Maybe - or maybe not. As Andres Segovia once said
'The Guitar is an orchestra within itself'.

I'm only an 'average' player but I've had an audience's full attention at times on some solo gigs (admittedly more so with duos!). I tend to sometimes find melodic hooks in some Flamenco pieces I do, which is way of getting their attention. Of course, a Rumba with copious quantities of gratuitous slapping often does the job too!



duende -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Dec. 8 2004 19:11:21)

Will you send a copy to me??[8D]
I´ll E-mail my adress

Henrik



Stoney -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 11:11:17)

I just posted on another thread that I wasn't going to resurrect any more old posts and then I stumbled onto this one and I can't resist.

I agree with exactly one poster on this thread.

quote:

I like everything in flamenco.
It is not what is played, but how it is played.

There can be a lot in any form


Although I have to admit that Rodena and Zambra, in the wrong hands can be quite challenging to the listener.

What gets me is the disdain of any form that isn't 12 beat and is anything along the lines of a classical piece.

I may just be asuming that my knowledge of the instrument is correct but -

Wasn't the guitar invented in Spain?
Weren't the greatest classical guitarists and the classical composers who wrote especially for the guitar all Spanish?

And

Isn't Flamenco the combination of Gypsy, Spanish and American ie: new world influences? How does one Palo end up being REAL Flamenco and another not? Flamencoized?? I don't get it.

Would you say the classical guitar influenced Flamenco guitar or the other way around?

(I for one really can't fathom a person who loves Flamenco and Hates classical - doesn't jibe)

And lastly, I would have thought that someone would have put Malaguenas as the worst style of all, mostly for having been over played to the point of being the "Hotel California" of Flamenco music. (although I still mix in a little Malaguenas when I play Verdiales)

Stoney

PS No intention here to resurrect the Modern vs. Traditional thread or irritate anybody. I just can't see dedicating my artistic energy to a style that I don't much care for.



mrMagenta -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 12:01:25)

..Garrotin. That one I can't stand.

You guys seem to have heard many solo guitar versions of zambras and farrucas. Where do you find them? I struggle to find many except the few of nino ricardo, sabicas, sanlucar, paco de lucia and paco pena, who do them well in my opinion.

I'd like some examples of bad ones. that would be really interesting and helpful. i'm working on a farruca, and i'm not an advanced player. Ron, does that mean i'm doomed? [8|]



JasonMcGuire -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 12:07:46)

Zorongo



bursche -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 12:21:49)

quote:

..Garrotin. That one I can't stand.


[:D][:D][:D]



Arash -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 12:28:44)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JasonMcGuire

Zorongo




its not that bad [:D][:D]



XXX -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 12:30:36)

Sevillanas are fun. Many people think that i find sevillanas boring but thats not the case! Zambra and the likes are horrible (what ive heard so far). I have heard only one cool guajira falseta, in the right hands it could sound good perhaps. Like with every palo... when there is somebody who plays it very well, then you start to like the palo.

Oh, yes i like cante by the way (i.e flamenco [:D] )



Estevan -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 13:12:52)

quote:

Weren't the greatest classical guitarists and the classical composers who wrote especially for the guitar all Spanish?
No.



KMMI77 -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 23:07:38)

Anything i feel the need to turn down at the lights when i am listening to it in my car.[:D][:D]

Garrotin, guajira, anything that is too major in key, cheesy, longwinded, wimpy, boring interpretations that go nowhere will result in me pressing the skip button.

Also when people play a crap version of Asturias as part of their granaina.[:'(]

I did a gig a while ago with another guitarist playing on a marina at a boat show.
We were on a break and just sitting with our guitars when a guy walked over to me. He didn't say anything, he just pointed at the guitar and gestured that he wanted to play it. He looked at us as if to say, I'll show you how to play guitar.

I gave him the guitar and he began with a big sloppy strum on the e major chord that nearly broke all my strings.[:D] He then stared singing, MALAGUENA MALAGUENA MALAGUENA, playing and singing the worst version of it i have heard. My friend and i remained straight faced until he handed the guitar back and walked away proudly without saying anything. After that experience i will have to add Malagueña to my list.

Maybe we should start another thread about funny people at gigs.



NormanKliman -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 23:24:20)

quote:

Maybe we should start another thread about funny people at gigs.


Hi Kris,

Oh man, that would be long and colorful I'm sure! I once played a bulería at a bar in Austin, Texas as a favor to warm up the crowd for that night's artist. Got a very nice response, no problems there, but after I'd finished a silly woman asked if I could play something by Ottmar Liebert. She was a good friend of the artist and there were a lot of people listening to our conversation, so I said as nicely as I could that I didn't play anything like that. Her (very loud) response was, "Oh, then you don't know nuthin' 'bout no flamingo, hee-hee-hee!"[:D]

I'm not too fond of Caracol's "Carcelero," and it just seems kind of silly when concert guitarists try to turn flamenco into a "highbrow" experience, with the tuxedo and everything. Thankfully, you don't see that much anymore.



KMMI77 -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 19 2010 23:59:21)

quote:

so I said as nicely as I could that I didn't play anything like that. Her (very loud) response was, "Oh, then you don't know nuthin' 'bout no flamingo, hee-hee-hee!"


[:D][:D][:D]

[:D][:D][:D]

A funny thing to do when people come up and ask if you know ottmar etc is to say, i have never heard of him. They become frustrated and can't believe it. Lol!

Someone asked me if i had heard of Eric Clapton at a gig recently. I said politely, No, i have never heard of him. He walked away thinking i was real crap after that.[:D][:D]

I have even done it with paco de lucia. My freind and i have a buleria that we play together where we play all the paco falsetas that we know and accompany each other.

We had just finished playing it when i guy came up and said, You guys should check out paco de lucia. So i said" i have never heard of him"[:D][:D] He walked off thinking i was crap as well.[:D][:D]



minordjango -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 3:33:54)

quote:

Boring???


put your finger on the 4th string 7th position....

play with your thumb ( downstroke) the 6th, 5th and 4th string.

taste the sound, try to hear the separate strings.....

do it once more, think of honey and wine, warm sun, garlic....

hear the orchestra....

LOve that Peter right down to the GARLIC, done !!

I guess all our out musical education changes also through time, when i was playing Hotel california its like wow !! now having heard a lot of flamenco its like there are so many wow!s.

i think of the excitement when hearing say Farruca by sabicas or the great falsetas played by Paco pena on toque flamencos.

i must admit on the mp5 these days ill listen to many dance forms just to try and get the feel , so not often listr to lengthy Grananians or tarantas , ey they still rock.

Boring???

not for me!

Peter



Florian -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 6:40:11)

quote:

I hate Guajiras, Zapateado, Sevillanas I generaly hate everything i dont have good falsetas for :)


lol i have to say my opinion has changed a bitt since 2004.....well actually no lol i still hate anything i dont have falsetas that i like for ...but after a bitt of concetrating on guajiras for a workshop last year...i have changed my feelings on it

i transcribed the carlos sauras guajira falsetas (from flamenco) and i enjoy playing it atm...it works well in our weekly tapas bar gig with the dancer and singer because it adds such nice contrast in keys and in the sound...

from buleria, to alegrias, to solea ...etc

its a bit sweet...but it has a nice light air about it ...i dont mind it...

i dont know if id listen to many solos of it ...but i guess its different playing it


Atm ...I am really hating Cana...( well not really...i love the singing) is just i have listened to every cana i could get my hands on and I havent heard one cana falseta that captivates me or makes me feel anything or id like to transcribe or play....

I know Norman will probably call me up on this and tell me Cana is about the singer and the voice thats why the falsetas are really just short litlle fillings (riffs)...is that right Norman ?

but i dont know id still like to have a falseta and an intro i like playing and can relate a litlle too for it..



Kate -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 6:56:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman
after I'd finished a silly woman asked if I could play something by Ottmar Liebert. She was a good friend of the artist and there were a lot of people listening to our conversation, so I said as nicely as I could that I didn't play anything like that. Her (very loud) response was, "Oh, then you don't know nuthin' 'bout no flamingo, hee-hee-hee!"[:D]


A friend of mine in Jerez had two tourists ( friends of friends) turn up on their doorstep saying they wanted to see some flamenco. My friend replied they should go to the Peña and it had good shows on Friday and they said no we want to see good flamenco now as we are only in Jerez a few hours !!!. Seeing as it was tuesday 10 am in morning my friend was at a loss but took them to a cafe where the flamencos hang out to have coffee. Who should then walk in with guitar but Moraitio and a crowd of people straight from an all night juerga and they began playing and dancing and singing. My friend was amazed at the luck of the tourists but as they left to carry on their spanish adventure they turned and said. Well thanks for coffee shame about the flamenco, maybe next time we will get to see the real thing !!!



Mike_Kinny -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 7:02:58)

quote:

lol i have to say my opinion has changed a bitt since 2004.....well actually no lol i still hate anything i dont have falsetas that i like for ...but after a bitt of concetrating on guajiras for a workshop last year...i have changed my feelings on it


Mine hasn't changed since :)

quote:


i transcribed the carlos sauras guajira falsetas (from flamenco) and i enjoy playing it atm...it works well in our weekly tapas bar gig with the dancer and singer because it adds such nice contrast in keys and in the sound...


If you are talking about the guajira by Jose Antonio Rodriguez then that's really nice.

It's obvious if a palo isn't used much it won't get developed. Buleria is well-developed but guagira and colombiana less so and zambra, zorongo under-developed and therefore boring.

However I think Jose Antonio Rodriguez and Manolo Franco show the possibilities of guajira and colombiana.



Florian -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 7:09:57)

quote:

Mine hasn't changed since :)


lol i dont blame you...i have pressed skip many times on it myself...until i was forced to look at it cause we had a workshop on it and i had to accompany

I havent heard any other Jose's solo albums other than Manhattan de la Frontera...and theres no guajira there.....he basically does 2 falsetas in Carlos Saura...id love to hear more from him cause the 2 falsetas and intro sitt so nicely

does he do any other guajiras anywhere else ?



Mike_Kinny -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 7:25:24)

quote:

does he do any other guajiras anywhere else ?


Brisa Cubana. It's in his Guitarra Flamenca album. If go to deezer.com you can listen to the whole album.



Florian -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 7:29:25)

thanks mate, il check it out



minordjango -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 8:03:14)

kate thats a classic,
shame about the flamingo ! imagine as lot we would be so excited , maybe it was to earthy and gypsy[:@][:@]



Ricardo -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 8:15:34)

When gringos ask for Mala gwena, they mean lecuona. When latinos ask me, they mean Malagueña SALEROSA. If I am playing a gig and get asked that I say "sure I know Malagueña, my favorite cante!" Then I pelt out in high full voice, loud as SH.T, Malagueña de Mellizo. Especially on instrumental guitar gigs that amuses me cuz they look at me in shock and confusion till I stop and go "what, you don't mean malagueña de mellizo? Which one did you mean, Chacon???"

They usually walk away after that like "what an A hole"...

Lately the new joke is "no, we only do BUENAgueña". [:D]

Some one I met was also a "friend" of ottmar and asked my opinion of him. I said "don't ask" they begged, so I just said he is like the Kenny G of flamingo, and left it at that.

Only palo I skip or don't play is Peteneras.

Ricardo



NormanKliman -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 8:30:20)

Hi Flo,

quote:

I know Norman will probably call me up on this and tell me Cana is about the singer and the voice...


By "call you up" I hope you don't mean that I might try to scold you or even raise objections to what you've said. I could add a few comments, but I think everybody already knows this: The only thing that makes it a caña is the melody of the singing, so as far as the guitar is concerned, it's just a soleá. Of course there are some characteristic chords and structure in there, especially the "ay-ay-ay" part (which can be in rhythm or free) but that all comes from the singing. So the only way to make a falseta specific to caña (or polo) would be to work some of those characteristics of the singing into the guitar. Same thing with serrana/siguiriya. Unless you copy parts of the accompaniment or the singing of serrana, it makes no sense to call a siguiriya in E a serrana.

How'd it go with the jaleos?

Ricardo, you don't like THAT cante? I don't even like hearing or reading the name (there's a street with that name near my house, can you imagine?) Today it's considered uncool to express an aversion toward THAT cante, the idea being that it's a naive throwback to the days of mairenismo or something. I've even known more than one gypsy who openly laughed at people who don't like THAT cante. They're always professionals who had to get over the issue a long time ago. The only sort of people who I've seen react in an exaggerated way (making a big deal of covering up their ears) were kind of pathetic guys. But like you, I don't like THAT cante, and I don't care if anyone thinks it's silly or old-fashioned or naive of me. I've heard Menese belt out a great version, really exciting stuff, and of course Pastora... But still, I don't go there, I never bring up the subject in my circles and neither does anyone else.



Florian -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 8:56:53)

no not at all Norman [:)] infact it was an invitation to share your knowledge and opinion....i wanted to know how you see it..

quote:

How'd it go with the jaleos?


hmm...it was ok...just scraped through...lucky it was just for beginners...she did farucca and alegrias for advanced..and that was, synconpated stuff, offbeats, contra whatever she had it was ok...(i felled confident cause i get to play those all the time)

with jaleo i felled very unprepared and unconfident..( is that a word ?[:D])...i need to study it more...i keped ending up sounding bulerias

and just the singing jaleo tracks is not helping me that much...i need to see or hear something with a dancer so i know how it changes between the cante accomp and dance acomp...footwork etc..how it speeds up for feet but without sounding like bulerias...if thats possible

whenever the feet speed up i ended up sounding more buleria than jaleo...i know ricardo warned me about this but i need to study it more and find some audio or visual examples..it registers better

my problems would have been solved if solo compas did something on jaleo...cause whenever i need to know how something its worked with cante and dance thats my bible...but they have nothing on jaleo ...or i dont have it

i played the rithm just like the palmas" TAM taram taram tam TAM taram taram tam..

but there was something missing ...didnt feel too good about it to be perfectly honest

it was my own fault ...i underestimated it..



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 20 2010 8:57:44)

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Ricardo -> RE: The Very Worst of the Mundo y Formas de Flamenco? (Jan. 20 2010 8:58:21)

quote:

I've even known more than one gypsy who openly laughed at people who don't like THAT cante. They're always professionals who had to get over the issue a long time ago.


Yeah, I dont' care either. Call me silly or old fashioned. I had an experience with voodoo when I was young adult that has marked me for life. I take it serious, it is scary stuff, call me crazy, I really don't care. Ok, no more about that.

Caña has some standard falsetas that from R. Montoya on to Paco have used in their "solea" guitar solos. Here is an example of Paco's take on Caña:


And Paco Peña does exactly as you describe for Serrana:
At 5:27, he calls it "song of the sierra".


Hey a guy sings it right after that scene on the DVD but the youtuber cut it out! Who was that singer? I know the guitar was Pedro Bacan.



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