tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Full Version)

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HolyEvil -> tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 12 2010 23:56:16)

hi there guys..
i'm currently working on tremolo.. just wonder whether you guys practice the flamenco tremolo and the classical tremolo at the same time?
or do you guys practice the flamenco tremolo.. then after like a year or 2 after you have sorta grasp the flamenco tremolo and you start on the classical tremolo?
OR do you not do the classical tremolo at all?

another question about IF we work on the classical tremolo..
can we do it PIAM rather than PAMI
because PIAM is very similar to the flamenco tremolo of PIAMI,
I know some people do the flamenco tremolo as PMAMI but I'm just talking about PIAMI in relation to the PAMI here..

and i'm doing mostly 6-1111, then 5-2222, 4-2222, 3-2222
then reverse.. 6 being the 6th string, and 2 being the 2nd string..

is this enough practice material?

cheers



NormanKliman -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 3:33:17)

I think most players today use standard p-i-a-m-i and other patterns with even more notes, but not sixteenth notes (p-a-m-i or whatever). In malagueñas and other styles you sometimes hear "bursts" of tremolo that might involve sixteenths, but that's more like adding texture rather than an actual tremolo falseta.

quote:

is this enough practice material?


It sounds like a good start to me, although you might want to also try patterns where your thumb is on the second or third string.

You just have to keep yourself busy with the technique for a few years. It's not a good idea to damp the unplayed strings even though it seems more logical to beginners, because you're actually better off developing the control needed to avoid tremoloing on the wrong string.

Ramón Montoya is the guy to listen to for tremolos (and his tremolos as played by Niño Ricardo, Melchor, Manolo and Pepe de Badajoz, Sabicas, etc.) and of course Paco de Lucía.

So my advice is to just keep yourself busy with the technique, look for ways to do it better, and learn a new tremolo every once in a while.



Ricardo -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 5:12:27)

I came to the realization that tremolos are mechanically the same as arpegios. Like and arpegio technique, but instead of on separate strings, you do them on ONE string plus bass note. So as many arp patterns you work on, in theory, you could do the same with tremolo.

The flamenco tremolo is interesting because when it is done in compas but super slow, there will be a long pause between the bass note and the 4 finger notes, like this:

P.......iamiP.........iamiP......

With that concept in mind, you can work out all tremolos, but keep the fingers moving at the same speed always, and later simply close the gap there depending on the tempo you need to achieve in musical context. Here is a Solea to practice:

$4 3 $1 5555 $3 5 $1 4444 $2 0 6666

$4 3 $1 5555 $3 5 $1 4444 $2 0 6666

$4 3 $1 5555 $3 5 $1 4444 $2 0 6666

$6 4 $2 5555 $4 3 $2 5555 $3 4



HolyEvil -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 13:27:40)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo


The flamenco tremolo is interesting because when it is done in compas but super slow, there will be a long pause between the bass note and the 4 finger notes, like this:

P.......iamiP.........iamiP......

With that concept in mind, you can work out all tremolos, but keep the fingers moving at the same speed always, and later simply close the gap there depending on the tempo you need to achieve in musical context.




Hi there Ricardo. the above don't make sense to me..
can you please elaborate?
why when playing in compas, there will be a longer pause between the bass notes and the treble notes?
shouldn't it be the same pause? 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5, rather than 1 & & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5,
numbers being the notes being striked, the & being the pause between the notes..
if it's being played like an arppegio in compas, where there isn't a longer pause between the P and I/M/A finger,
why would there be a longer pause between the P and the 1 when playing tremolo?

when I'm practicing to the metronome, should I be practicing 1 & & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5 rather than 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5,
making sure i have a longer gap between the bass note and the treble notes? (in this eg, the metronome click falls on the 1)

thanks heaps mate!



Rain -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 13:33:11)

I came to the realization that tremolos are mechanically the same as arpegios

Absolutely 100% agree.



Rain -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 13:37:06)

Practice in even tempo first holyevil making sure the beat is even do not use rubato until you can play it evenly.



Chiste de Gales -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 13:38:58)

I always play flamenco trem as: piami
and classical as:pami

I never put in any practice on the classical version. I might if I start playing Recuerdos again. I do play the 4 note in one brief phrase in a Zambra I play
by Pepe Martinez.



Ricardo -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 14:48:12)

quote:

why when playing in compas, there will be a longer pause between the bass notes and the treble notes?
shouldn't it be the same pause? 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5, rather than 1 & & 2 & 3 & 4 & 5,
numbers being the notes being striked, the & being the pause between the notes..
if it's being played like an arppegio in compas, where there isn't a longer pause between the P and I/M/A finger,
why would there be a longer pause between the P and the 1 when playing tremolo?


I am talking when the tempo is super slow. The beat is the thumb, and the other notes get crammed into a comfortable speed flourish that leads into the next beat. The same exact thing would happen with arpegios P......imaP.......or P.......amiP......etc. Tremolo can feel more like those types of arps if you want, its a way to emphasize the beat, without sacrificing the momentum of the technique.

Use the metronome however you want. Slower tempo I would do like that rather then individual strokes as 5 tuplets. At a certain tempo you will close the gap so the iami part is no longer just a flourish of 4 notes, and becomes linked to the bass notes with no pause to create the 5 tuplets.



HolyEvil -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 19:06:47)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

I am talking when the tempo is super slow. The beat is the thumb, and the other notes get crammed into a comfortable speed flourish that leads into the next beat. The same exact thing would happen with arpegios P......imaP.......or P.......amiP......etc. Tremolo can feel more like those types of arps if you want, its a way to emphasize the beat, without sacrificing the momentum of the technique.

Use the metronome however you want. Slower tempo I would do like that rather then individual strokes as 5 tuplets. At a certain tempo you will close the gap so the iami part is no longer just a flourish of 4 notes, and becomes linked to the bass notes with no pause to create the 5 tuplets.


cheers mate!! i think I understand what you mean now..
when playing tremolo music super slowly. it'll be more like P...IAMI, P...IAMI etc...
when playing tremolo music at a faster place it'll be more like PIAMI, PIAMI, PIAMI etc

am i correct?

thanks for ya help!



HolyEvil -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 13 2010 19:08:04)

oh n thanks to everyone else who replied too!

cheers



BarkellWH -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 14 2010 15:10:34)

I think your basic question was whether or not to practice flamenco tremolo and classical tremolo at the same time, or just flamenco tremolo. I live in the Washington, DC area, and for the last few years I have been taking flamenco guitar lessons from Paco de Malaga, the doyenne of the Washington flamenco community. Further, I am an older, retired U.S. Foreign Service Officer who does not read music and with no natural musical talent, whose lessons are broken up from time to time by overseas consulting jobs that last three to four months at a time. (Currently, I am on a four-month gig at the American Embassy in the small Pacific island nation of Palau--which, by the way, has the best diving in the world!) I mention the above because, for some unknown reason, I found the flamenco tremolo (piami) relatively easy to nail down. I find it easier to maintain a steady, fast flamenco tremolo than I do the classical version. The trick, as taught to me by Paco, is to start slowly and practice, maintaining a dead-on, even tremolo with each stroke. Once you have mastered that, without sounding like a horse's gallop, you can increase the speed. The most important thing about the tremolo, however, is to maintain dead-even strokes.

Personally, if you are concentrating on learning flamenco guitar, I see no reason to practice the classical tremolo. Stick with the flamenco tremolo. The only reason I can see to learn and practice classical tremolo is if you want to learn Recuerdos de La Alhambra, and that could take someone like me a lifetime (or what's left of mine, at least!) to learn to play correctly.

Cheers,

Bill



HolyEvil -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 15 2010 4:05:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH
Personally, if you are concentrating on learning flamenco guitar, I see no reason to practice the classical tremolo. Stick with the flamenco tremolo. The only reason I can see to learn and practice classical tremolo is if you want to learn Recuerdos de La Alhambra, and that could take someone like me a lifetime (or what's left of mine, at least!) to learn to play correctly.

Cheers,

Bill


honestly.. i was thinking of learning the classical tremolo because of La Alhambra..
because it sounds AWESOME! such beautiful music.. =)

would it sound wrong with the flamenco tremolo?

cheers



BarkellWH -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 15 2010 18:43:12)

Recuerdos can be played with a flamenco tremolo, but it is a slower version, due to the extra stroke. I have heard Paco, my instructor, play it with the flamenco piami, and it sounded alright to me. A purist probably would say to learn to play it with the classical tremolo, as that is the one with which it was meant to be played. That said, I think most people would consider the flamenco tremolo harder to master than the classical tremolo, and it might be kind of cool to be able to play Recuerdos with the flamenco version just for the novelty and exotic quality it would bring to the occasion.

Cheers,

Bill



Pimientito -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 16 2010 1:27:14)

quote:

The only reason I can see to learn and practice classical tremolo is if you want to learn Recuerdos de La Alhambra, and that could take someone like me a lifetime


Just my 2 cents but there seems to be quite a lot of snobbery among flamenco guitarists about classical tremelo. The p,a,m,i tremelo is very useful and sounds beautiful. Its used in a lot of older pieces. Sabicas used it in many compositions.
Dont forget that early players like Montoya developed tremelo in flamenco by copying classical players in the first place.
Modern pieces usually have p,i,a,m,i and this gives a different aire to a piece. Recuerdos does not sound as secure with flamenco tremelo. I've tried it with both and the original sounds better. The same goes for Barrios.

Not many players can do both tremelos. I totally agree with everything you said here
quote:

start slowly and practice, maintaining a dead-on, even tremolo with each stroke. Once you have mastered that, without sounding like a horse's gallop, you can increase the speed. The most important thing about the tremolo, however, is to maintain dead-even strokes.


Ive been playing recuerdos half my life and I think I've nailed the technique now. I've uploaded an exerpt of it from my upcoming CD on the audio section for you guys to check out.



Ricardo -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 16 2010 5:34:53)

Just about any melody can be played as a tremolo, with either technique, or even like Manolo Sanlucar's tremolo where he just rides the melody note ami ami as long as he wants until you change a bass note. IMO Recuerdos is just like the one and only thing in classical guitar. I respect it as a pretty melody, but it is so over done I am kind of sick of it. Meanwhile, there are tons of beautiful tremolo melodies in the flamenco repertoire, which again could be either elongated with more notes, or shortened using the "classical" tremolo, put into compas, bass notes added so it is a DIFFERENT compas etc...etc.... you can take a tremolo melody and make it simply and arpegio passage. The scope is so broad compared to what just working on Recuerdos like it is the be all end all of the technique.

IMO.

ricardo



Andy Culpepper -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 16 2010 5:39:07)

Check out this guy's tremolo..I saw him play this live in Seville. he's a very emotional player.




Arash -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 16 2010 6:16:39)

Nice Andy. Very emotional, good sound.
But why doesn't he rest his thumb? his thumb is like flying over the strings. He should rest stroke.
like here (@0.57)



thats better for the technique imo, also less tension in the hand when you rest stroke and more relaxed.



Pimientito -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 16 2010 7:24:23)

I think its a bit harsh to say that Recuerdos is the one and only tremelo thing in the classical repertoire worth studying when you consider some of the stuff that Barrios came up with...
However, what I was trying to say is that you dont need to stick to any one kind of tremelo in flamenco. I know a few players that won't play p,a,m,i just because its classical technique and that's just snobbery to me. I agree with the rest of what you said though about using the different techniques to get different aires. Using p,i,m,a or p,i,a,m,i as you want to to get different feels. Sometimes a faster melody is better suited to p,i,m,a.

The Manolo sanlucar "oracion" is achingly beautiful. Can anyone here actually play it?



Ricardo -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 16 2010 13:02:53)

quote:

I think its a bit harsh to say that Recuerdos is the one and only tremelo thing in the classical repertoire worth studying


I was not saying that, I meant it is a piece that is OVER studied, vs other things in the repertoire available. It is an underused technique in that sense, classical guitarists seem to think they need to learn THAT piece in order to learn the technique, when in fact they could be arranging arias from operas or something ANYTHING ELSE using the technique. Flamenco players seem to use it to that effect more, and in theory, one could improvise a tremolo if necessary. I have found myself doing that for baile when required..... Just pick a chord progression and bass line, and go for it, twiddling about on the top strings until you make something pretty out of it.

On youtube you can find 2 forum buddies doing manolo's piece, Grisha and Javier Conde I used to know it back when my tremolo was bad. I might pick it up again to work on, but I have been more into make up my own lately....


Ricardo



Arash -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 16 2010 13:04:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pimientito

The Manolo sanlucar "oracion" is achingly beautiful. Can anyone here actually play it?


Grisha



Chiste de Gales -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 17 2010 6:21:38)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BarkellWH

Recuerdos can be played with a flamenco tremolo, but it is a slower version, due to the extra stroke. I have heard Paco, my instructor, play it with the flamenco piami, and it sounded alright to me. A purist probably would say to learn to play it with the classical tremolo, as that is the one with which it was meant to be played. That said, I think most people would consider the flamenco tremolo harder to master than the classical tremolo, and it might be kind of cool to be able to play Recuerdos with the flamenco version just for the novelty and exotic quality it would bring to the occasion.

Cheers,

Bill


Well- I learned it in music school, where I was expected to play it "as written". Every now and then I get it out again, but Id hate to relearn the techniques attached to the piece if I were to start doing 5-note trem on it.



Andy Culpepper -> RE: tremolo practice, just flamenco or classical too? (Mar. 17 2010 7:14:08)

quote:

But why doesn't he rest his thumb?


His technique is crazy, very unorthodox. But he made Tino van der Sman, who was in the same show, look very bored by comparison. Never a good thing for flamenco.



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