making a living with the guitar (Full Version)

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musicalgrant -> making a living with the guitar (Oct. 28 2004 19:05:52)

Hi all

Can anyone say they are making a living out of playing and teaching the guitar?

I am about to go back into chefing LOL, and really wish I could make it by performing and teaching...but needs must and all that mortgage to pay etc.. so back to work I go...

If anyone had any ideas please let me know,,,, I have had contact with other flamencos but we are all trying to make a living so no one really cares about the other unless they are helping themselves, ie protecting our interests.. so what is it all about?

flamenco in its place of origin is about community, and in other countries? what is it about?



Miguel de Maria -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 28 2004 19:35:38)

Well, I am making a living playing the guitar...as well as chefing, washing dishes, and doing other domestic chores! My wife, a lawyer, is the breadwinner in our family and does quite well. I don't make enough to sustain a family, and it would be slim pickings indeed if I were flying solo. But I get more and more gigs as time goes by, and in a couple years I will be making pretty good money. Here are the keys to success to being a local working musician:

1. A good product that matches the needs of the community:
If you are singing por siguriyas and that is your act, you are going to be homeless. You have to find out what kind of music your community hires and who makes money. Lucky for me, I live in a town which has pretty extensive music needs due to high income and lots of tourism, and living in the Southwestern US, flamenco and latin music in general is very popular.

2. Professionalism
This is where you can make headway in a market already saturated, by being punctual, presentable, honest, and friendly. Musicians are well known to be chronically late, scruffy, flaky, and weird. If you can polish your business and social skills, you will gain ground.

3. Networking
If you starting a business, it doens't matter if it's music or anything else--it's who you know. I have had an interesting two months. I was called for a gig by a friend of my old flamenco teacher. At that gig I met another musician. Now in this month, I played for the first time with: 1. the friend of my teacher, 2. the musician I met there (twice), and my teacher (twice). Four gigs just because I happened to take lessons with this particular man.
The lesson is clear, you have to make contacts. Most gigs I have gotten have been because I knew someone. You have to be friendly, you need to spend time getting to know people, and you have to be the honest, hardworking, friendly kind of person people would like to work with.

4. Flexibility
I'm a big believer in this, something I am starting to really get benefits from. I started out in a rumba band where I was the sidekick to a singer/guitarist. I then met another guitarist who needed a sidekick, so I learned his repertoire and we started gigging too. Eventually, I get a solo repertoire so I could get solo gigs. I got together with another guitarist and we did gigs. I know how to read music and charts so I can actually gig without even rehearsing. I learned some wedding songs and I can do weddings. I play at restaurants, bars, corporate events, private parties, real estate open houses, art galleries, and resorts. The more things you can do, the more establishments you contact, the more people you know, the more gigs you get. And getting steady gigs is good too.

I'm on pace for about 60 gigs this year, and I am shooting for 100 next year.

5. Money
My personal philosophy is, No Work for no money is better than work for no money. I don't play for free. Never. Ever. People Do Not Respect What They Don't Pay For. My friend Arturo is a great musician but a bad businessperson. He doesn't know how to negotiate--oh by the way, you have to find out what the going rate for musicians is, that's very important--and he sometimes plays for free. When you play for free, you devalue the worth of your product and yourself in their eyes. It's a bad idea, and it almost never leads to paying gigs. Why should they pay you when you are the kind of musician who plays for free?



musicalgrant -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 28 2004 19:48:16)

Thankyou Miguel

There is lots of food for thought there.

I will try and get myself up and running,but as you know it takse a regular income to pay the bills...and maybe one day I will get there..

I suffer from cerviacl spondylosis which has made my hands pack up on several occasions, and I am trying to find ways around this.. as you can imagine, when your hands pack up it is no fun!!

I prefer playing duets with other flamenco guitarists, as it takes the pressure off, but yet to find anyone who can play accompaniement to flamenco lol

anyhow thanks for the feed-back it is really appreciated

Thanks Grant



Ron.M -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 28 2004 21:13:53)

Grant,
I remember seeing a programme on BBC TV way back in the 60's centred around Manuel Morao (with Terremoto.)
In those days it was included in the same sort of midweek series such as "Our Disappearing World", normally featuring jungle tribes in the Amazon etc LOL!
One thing I remember from it is the narrator talking about Morao, saying...
"Now, after the bright lights of the stages of London, Paris, New York, San Francisco, Hong Kong Tokyo, Mexico City and Buenos Aires, accompanying the finest Flamenco singers and Dancers.....Manuel Morao has now come back to his home city of Jerez....
The bright lights are now only fading memories, and along with his wife and family, he has used his savings to buy a small bar to supplement the fluctuating income he receives as a guitarist...."

So there you have it!
The number of guitarists who have got wealthy from playing, must be very few indeed.

As for making a living...
I reckon if anybody turns up at a gig as an introverted, poorly dressed Bohemian and does "his own thing" on stage, like he was Paco playing to devoted fans instead of an average nightclub or restaurant audience, then I would guess the outlook is very grim LOL!

To be "successful" in the meaning of "Being able to earn money out of playing the guitar, instead of doing some **** job that you are not interested in and is sapping away eight to ten hours of your waking day, when you'd rather be spending time with the guitar...
Then Mike's advice (and Jon's) is the only modern way to go IMO.
You've got to be prepared to give a little and play stuff that the punters like, but you don't neccessarily enjoy playing.
I once knew a professional violinist who gave it all up, got back into University, studied, graduated, then became a Lecturer.
He said, "I loved the Violin...but I've always hated Brahms.....and when you have got to force yourself to get psyched up and play Brahms the best you can on a Saturday night at 7.30pm whether you feel like it or not, just because that's what the Concert Schedule requires of you.......Well, I just couldn't go on anymore.....
I now just play what I want in my own room, for pleasure and have a steady income and pension plan."

You pays your money and takes yer choice I'm afraid...

Question!

Name the top ten Flamenco Guitarists in the World.
Easy

Now name the next 200 who are not far away from that standard.

A lot harder.

Now these guy's are just basically gigging and keeping the wolf away.

Paco Peña is a good, solid Flamenco guitarist, who would have been one of the 200 if he hadn't got his backside out of Spain and re-located to London, where he started to network using the Art's Council and Radio/Television to further his goals.
That guy was definitely hard working, getting overnight sleeper trains up and down the UK to play the smallest venues and appearing on TV for very small fees.
Jeez, at the start he used to play Folk Clubs!
Now Paco is a millionaire and lives down the road from John Williams in one of the most expensive areas of North London.
Depends what you want and what your needs are IMO.
Popular DJ and Broadcaster John Peel has suddenly bit the dust to everybody's surprise.
A sudden massive heart attack at 65, while on holiday in Peru.

Guess he won't be worrying about his pension now.....

cheers

Ron

(Jeez, that was a good rant! Haven't had one of those since the last time LOL!)



Escribano -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 28 2004 21:32:58)

quote:

Popular DJ and Broadcaster John Peel has suddenly bit the dust to everybody's surprise. A sudden massive heart attack at 65, while on holiday in Peru


You want to make a living as a musician? Get banned by John Peel (as we were) and see how far it takes you. Bastard! To be fair, it was his producer, John Walters. Now they are both dead and we are surely heading in the same direction



musicalgrant -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 28 2004 22:51:37)

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated.[:)]

I have found when performing that if you play a gypsy kings rumba 90% will like it, but play a flamenco Tarantas 5% will like it. yes u r right, play for the punters to make a living. Play the true flamecno and you need to work as well as performing.

So it becomes a job. i.e we get paid for something we dont enjoy doing! Sounds like a 9 to 5. lol

If someone like Paco de Lucia did that he wouldnt be famous today, it was by breaking the old traditional mold with Cameron, with Entre dos Aguas , that he broke into the European market, by breaking away from what his audience wanted, that he made it.

Playing to the punters isn't always the wise choice. As it can be patronising (i need to learn how to spell I know LOL), it can be condiscending, and the punters who know, will not respect the muso who plays to please the masses, and they may even feel insulted!

Tom jones LOL does exactly that and yes he is rich too!!! lots of pants thrown his way[:'(] lol. The Grannys love him!!!

Anyhow, I dont know what the answers are, as a muso I have found performing for a living has taken away the chance for me to learn, in that i didn't have the time to develop the guitar playing, and yet working as a chef has done that also!

I have found that performing and pleasing the audience IMO isn't alwasys a pleasure, it can be like working down the local Spar shop(pleasing the customer), where as developing as a guitarist is much more pleasurable, spending the time practising and develping ones own technique and gaining freedom to play in ones own style.

A bit like "arts for arts sake"

And I should not expect to be paid for doing somethingI enjoy, I could do much worthwhile things like working for children in need, etc.. for a local charity, or going abroad and helping the poor orthans in 3rd world countries....where should ones energies be directed?? Towards developing as an Artist or helping those in need??

It has always puzzled me this one!

What are the answers? Help!!!



musicalgrant -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 28 2004 23:08:00)

I have posted this reply to myself because I think I need to explain that I have had this point brought home to me on many occasions(by my ex who was a nurse), that isnstead of practising and playing the guitar why not go and do something useful! like voluntary work for charities etc...lol

That instead of practising for a performance why not do voluntary work, Why is Art more important than going and saving lives?

Cultural develpment vs life!! LOL I think this may be like throwing the cat into the middle of the pigeons!! LOL



gerundino63 -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 28 2004 23:43:11)

Hi Grant!

I am convinced, that everybody is doing everything always for himself.
so stop worrying, and ask your heart what you want.

I am aware this sounds a little hard, I do not want to hurt somebodies feelings, it is just my oppinion

greetings, Peter.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 29 2004 1:39:04)

Grant,
I do very little work at home "for the common punters." In fact the music I play for the common people is usually quite easy. I enjoy spending my time working on my scales, technique and music I love so actually most of my practice time is for me, not for the regular folk. But anyways playing music is a lot better than office work for me, no matter what I would be playing.



Ron.M -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 29 2004 9:01:07)

quote:

that isnstead of practising and playing the guitar why not go and do something useful! like voluntary work for charities etc...lol


Grant,
Everybody has the basic human right of pursuing their own happiness so long as it is not at the expense of others.
Some people gain pleasure and a sense of fulfilment working for charitable services.
That is their choice in life.
Nobody has the right to critisize anyone elses lifestyle, so long as it doesn't harm others.

There is also the Victorian "work" ethic, that unless you are working hard at a "respectable" job, then you are a malingerer.
Also the Scottish "Free Church" idea that to have any fun at all is a mortal sin.
Not too long ago it was an offence for kids to kick a ball around on a Sunday!
When I was a kid, my best friend was not allowed out to play on a Sunday, because it was the "Lord's" day. Neither could he play with any toys etc.
All examples of folk imposing their own values on others.
So don't feel guilty about playing guitar instead of risking getting you're hand chopped off in Sierre Leone or your head cut off in Iraq in a bid to be actively humanitarian and charitable.
These Overseas charitable organisations ain't as safe as they used to be.
That's for sure.

cheers

Ron



Jon Boyes -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 29 2004 10:20:26)

quote:

ORIGINAL: musicalgrant
Hi all
Can anyone say they are making a living out of playing and teaching the guitar?


I make about 20-25% of my living from music, although in my second year as a soloist I made a lot more than my first year, and hopefully it will continue to rise. I know just about all the working flamenco/classical/spanish guitar players in the area, and only one manages to do it completely full time, everyone else supplements their income with odd jobs, works in a part time or even full time day job. Especially in winter! In the summer I am usually out 3 nights a week or so, but it can be 4 or 5 times a week. In the winter, it goes very quiet - maybe one gig a week or even per fortnight.

You are right about playing straight flamenco to audiences - I've also had polite clapping or nothing if I play a tarantas, and almost standing ovations for playing Entre Dos Aguas. Such is life. You have to decide which is more important to you, being a pure amateur - playing for the love of it - or working as a musician. If you want to work, you have to accept compromise, thats the bottom line. I don't get a huge artistic kick out of playing Romanza to audiences a zillion times, but I remind myself that its much more fun than working in a factory or an office. And what about the rewards! How many times in a normal job do people applaud you, say they just loved what you did, say that you helped make their wedding the most special day in their life? Heck, playing the guitar as part of your living is cool!

If you want to make all or part of a living as a musician, all the stuff Mike says is important. Like him, I have worked very hard on things like marketing, networking, image etc and it does pay off. For me, music is something thats too important just to be a hobby, and so I am driven to make it central in my life. Flamenco will be a part of that, but I have no delusions about being a 'professional flamenco guitarist'.

My gameplan is therefore to slowly build up my work as a musician, whilst cutting back on the day job. It is working so far, although I won't say it is easy.

PS - Fortunately I have a very supportive and patient wife.

Jon



Barney -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 29 2004 12:32:58)

I agree with Jon, if you want a certain quantity of gigs, it helps to make a certain amount of 'artistic compromise' - alas, the public (certainly in the South West) are not particularly 'Flamenco orientated' and like a little bit of what they known occasionally.

I generally play a mix of Classical and Flamenco music, but also throw in a few, more contemporary, 'audience pleasers' to into the mix - such as the odd Spanishey interpretation of a Beatles number, Zorba the Greek, the Pink Panther etc. and the truth is, you can play a gorgeous Solea or Alegria, but then you follow it with Norwegian Wood to rapturous applause and suddenly everyone starts saying how wonderful you are (even though ironically it's so much more simple to play than most thing!). But there you go - never over-estimate your audience.

You also get remembered [when's the guitarist that does the Beatles tune playing again] and rebooked because of it - I'm sure you know this feeling Jon.

There are 2 friends of mine who play guitar 'for a living' - and although they are doing very well at it (and both extremely good too), it's the degree of 'making a living' you want - i.e. neither have family or mortgage issues or worry about.



Mark2 -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 29 2004 17:55:09)

I also make about 20 to 25% of my income playing, and I have made scores of artistic compromises-some of my gigs are less fun than my day job. But I think i've been successful in what I'm doing in that I have an established band which pleases the "punters". I also get to play flamenco for dancers & singers sometimes and do solo gigs and sessions too. I have found however, that the punter gigs can pay up to ten times the money than the flamenco dancer type gigs, and have recently been turning down the dancer gigs. I can satisfy my so called "artistic muse" at home, and make the money on the gigs. Having a family means not only making money, but more importantly, giving time. Last week I turned down a dance gig to see my ten year old's soccer game. She scored a goal in the first quarter - I'm really happy I didn't do the gig. There was a time I would have taken that gig. I've reached a point now that if I'm going to take time from my family and other pursuits, I'm going to make good money. I haven't really had to compromise on the solo gigs-usually it's background anyway, so all they get is solea, buleria, sig, tango , etc. My advice to anyone wanting to make a living playing is don't get married or have kids. OTOH, I know people who have taken that road and I wouldn't change places with them in a million years. I've tried to balance things and it has worked so far for me.



Mark2 -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 29 2004 18:04:38)

quote:

I don't get a huge artistic kick out of playing Romanza to audiences a zillion times


I have also played that piece for a bride walking down the aisle many times-it's an excellent choice for that. You can end it after the major or the minor section, and tailor it to the pace of the bride walking. And I have gotten artistic satisfaction from doing so by playing it with heavy emotion, by timing it so that the section ends just as the bride reaches the alter, by having a great sound that resonates throughout the church, by the reaction of the guests, and finally, by the outragous sum of money I have charged to play this simple music well!



Ron.M -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 29 2004 20:57:49)

quote:

My advice to anyone wanting to make a living playing is don't get married or have kids.


Exactly Mark,
I mean, it is really not possible to say to my wife and 11 year old daughter....
"OK guy's...that's it. Daddy is selling the house and we're all moving to Andalucia so Daddy can play guitar and go to Flamenco Peñas and roll in drunk at 3.00 am in the morning.
Now (to wife) you will have to pack in your job and say cheerio to your friends, and (to daughter) you will have to say goodbye to your school and all your friends and go to a nice school in Spain where all the kids speak Spanish....don't worry, you'll pick it up quickly....

(Hmmm....I can't see that working personally...LOL!)

cheers

Ron



Escribano -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 30 2004 11:54:01)

Agreed, that's why I am doing it. No kids, estranged wife. Money on the wife turning up later 'cos you're having too much fun [;)]



Mark2 -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 30 2004 23:29:57)

quote:

"The most wasted day of all is that on which we have not laughed" - Sebastien Roch Nicholas Chamfort


The part about the wife turning up gave me a laugh, so I guess it's been a productive day.[:)]



musicalgrant -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Oct. 30 2004 23:51:59)

Thankyou all for the wonderful feedback.[:)]

As yu can tell I am going through a tough time, I have started working a s a chef again, after 3 weeks of getting bacfk into the flamenco, I havn't recorded all the stuff I make up now. because now work it taking up all of my time.

And I wonder sometimes, why??
Why is it when you can play the guitar, sight read, and have a degree in the subject, one can end up working in a kitchen again.

But I think you guys are right, to make even 25% of a living out of it, is hard.And to really to be able to relax by a swimming pool in a lovley hot climate and play the guitar is reserved for the few who can actually make it.

And I am not one of them!!![:(] LOL

So life has a way of showing us that, despite what we would like to happen, and our skills that have taken 15 years +2 develop, Unlike any other career that takes a lot less time to develop we will have to still struggle for our art, and music and give enjoyment to others at a pitance of a price, when they are quite happy to pay 40 pounds for a computer technician to come on call out and yet argue over 60 pounds for an evening entertainment.[:(]
A lawyer trains for 5 years and then earn 100 pound an hour,and a flemcon guitarist who has trained most of his life will have to settle foe whatever is offered. LOL It is a funny old place we live in.

Thanks all for the great feedback, maybe I will find the answer to it all one day, or maybe I will stop asking stupid questions and just get on with it LOL



Mark2 -> RE: making a living with the guitar (Nov. 1 2004 16:26:53)

quote:

Exactly Mark,
I mean, it is really not possible to say to my wife and 11 year old daughter....
"OK guy's...that's it. Daddy is selling the house and we're all moving to Andalucia so Daddy can play guitar and go to Flamenco Peñas and roll in drunk at 3.00 am in the morning.
Now (to wife) you will have to pack in your job and say cheerio to your friends, and (to daughter) you will have to say goodbye to your school and all your friends and go to a nice school in Spain where all the kids speak Spanish....don't worry, you'll pick it up quickly....

(Hmmm....I can't see that working personally...LOL!)

cheers

Ron


Funny thing is Ron, that's exactly the advice a professional rock player, seeing my interest in flamenco, gave me. He said, "Just move your whole family over there" Of course, he is divorced, so he knows of what he speaks. I never considered the idea, as my wife and daughters would be unlikely to take to the idea-and that's putting it mildly!



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