Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Full Version)

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Jamey -> Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Oct. 27 2004 15:33:37)

Simple question really, which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with?

It just occured to me while reading Jon's Graf-Martinez DVD review that with all the myriad of rasgueados variations (which are rarely written the way they are normally played by the author/composer), we tend to settle into a few that are familliar and well practised.

I realized that I actually NEVER use AMI nor AMII. I can play both (sort of) but never use them so they don't feel natural or familliar to me. Nor can I play them fast with clarity (I know........practise).

The ones I use regularly (no particular order):

** continuous **
1) PAIP (first P up, last P down)
2) SAMI (all down - not as clean as I'd like but getting better)
3) IAI (triplet first I up, A and I down in succession)
4) IMIM (first I down M down, followed by I up M up) - (leftover from bass playing days)
5) SAMII (last I up and repeat)

** 5 stroke **
3) ISAMI (all down - the first 5 stroke I learned a la Juan Serrano so I'm stuck with it)
4) SAMII (last I up)
5) PAIPP (first and last P up)

** 4 stroke **
1) PAIP (first P up, last P down)
2) SAMI
3) IMIM
4) IAII (first and last I up)

** triplets **
1) IAI
2) PMP (I usually use AM together)
3) PIP (with IM together)

Well, that's me, I'm not sure why I use some of the ones I do other than they just came naturally or they where leftover from earlier days playing other things (non flamenco).

How about everybody else here?



Jim Opfer -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Oct. 28 2004 18:33:42)

Hi Jamey,

You seem to have just about every combination.

How about;

PSI (P up, S down, i down) roatating the wrist?
Gives a nice light sound with a kick from the P sound against the naturally lighter S stroke. Very compact and close to the 'basic' right hand position to help keep it all under control.

I think the main thing is to try to articulate the sound so that the ras is clean. Some of those ones with the double P up and back down at the end would be good for slow playing but might have too much in them for faster play?
Don't know, don't play those, just a thought.

Jim.



Jamey -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Oct. 28 2004 21:42:49)

Well I didn't think I had every one. If you look closer you'll see some very common ones missing. [&:]

Namely: PAI (P up, A down I down).
I don't do it that way, instead I add a descending P at the end.
For some reason, no matter what I do, I just can't get it working continuously without a break in it. Hence the addition of the thumb at the end to turn it into a 4 stroke rather than a 3. [>:]

Also: IMI (I up, M down, I down). I reverse it and use two strokes down (I then M) followed without pause by two strokes up (I up, then M up). This is just a relic from playing in punk rock bands years ago and not being able to play picado on the bass fast enough for the other speed freaks in the bands I used to play in (I've never played with a pick).

And the obvious common favourite that is missing (which prompted this thread in the first place): AMI and AMII. I can play both but not continuous (far from it). It seems that these two are very popular and are prefered among those playing more modern Flamenco. I've had very little exposure to either version. I saw an acompanyist in Sevilla do the AMII continuous and I remember thinking "what the hell is that?". [:-]

You mention PSI, here again I add a P stroke down at the end. Again for the same reason. It articulates more but I certainly can't play it as fast as some of the others normally. I find though, that if I keep using it, I get better at it while PAIP then seems to suffer. I don't know.........If I could just get PAI clean, I'd likely drop many of the others in favour of it.
Funny thing is, I learned most of those others almost as an avoidance activity because I just could not get a continuous PAI working properly. [:@]



Ron.M -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Oct. 28 2004 22:09:54)

Jamey,
Why so many rasgueados?
You are a veritable rasgueado Fort Knox
Do you need them all?
Why don't you give some of them away to charity, and make some more space?

cheers

Ron



Jamey -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Oct. 28 2004 23:14:22)

quote:

Why so many rasgueados?
You are a veritable rasgueado Fort Knox
Do you need them all?
Why don't you give some of them away to charity, and make some more space?



HAR HAR HAR HAR....

Well, as I said above...
quote:

If I could just get PAI clean, I'd likely drop many of the others in favour of it.
Funny thing is, I learned most of those others almost as an avoidance activity because I just could not get a continuous PAI working properly.


If I manage to get PAI clean and continuous, most of those other ones will be left out on the front porch with a "take one, they're free" sign on them.



Ron.M -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Oct. 29 2004 9:14:34)

Yeah Jamey,
I tend to use only a couple of rasgueados myself, but just put a different "spin" on them depending on what I'm playing, like maybe adding the pinky or making it more even or lop-sided according to the sound I like at the time.
Then again, I don't play for dancers, so I don't need any string-ripping, nail-breaking, industrial-strength types.

cheers

Ron



rickm -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Oct. 29 2004 23:15:27)

my two sense, 2 stroke- am, p, 3 stroke, p-up, m down, p down, 4 stroke, s,a,m,i
5 stroke, s,a,m,i,p or s,a,m,i,i or i,s,a,m,i and then sometimes, am down hard follwed immed by p down, a up slow for a flourish and p up for a flourish. sounds like a lot, but it fits with the various lessons I've had ....and I'm a beginner, very much so.



Skai -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Nov. 5 2004 1:20:32)

Just a thought, how many of you learn 1 of each kind of rasguedo or do you prefer more of each type for variety?
I myself learn ISAM etc.. for 5-stroke and continuous, SAMI for 4-stroke and PMP for triplets. I feel that it's enough to stick with one of each type though..

And another question, continuous rasguedos sound just beautiful to me. Whose rasguedo do you guys prefer? I love Juan Serrano's for his perfect drum roll, just try listening to his bulerias, sweet.. LOL just my obsession with continuous rasguedos..

Skai [8D]



Jamey -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Nov. 5 2004 18:34:37)

Well, I learned so many really as a matter of diversion. You see, I'd start with one and try to learn it, then somewhere along the way it either didn't go very well or I'd stumble upon a slightly different version that would work. Later the original one would finally come and I'd at that point have a couple of them when I was really originally only focusing on one. I sort of learned them by half learning them, trying others, getting those ones and then coming back and retrying the earlier ones. After a couple years I ended up with a pile of them that I could do and used regularly (because I was trying to learn them after all so I'd use them in pieces that I'd be learning). The real culprit is the PAI continous one, it is the reason I kept trying others. I've never had any luck with it (mental block perhaps?) so rather than let myself get discouraged, I'd try a different one. Now I have more than I'll ever use realistically so I've stopped playing some of them and just started to focus on a few (couple of each type for different effects).

If I had my preference, I'd like to just use clean versions of PAI, IAI, SAMI and perhaps the two ISAMI and SAMII. That would be it. I'd stop all the others.

Favourite continuous rasgueado? I'd have to say Pepe Habichuela's different varieties. In Al Dron he plays one so fierce that it sounds like he's going to rip the strings off of the guitar. He has a cool one that seems impossible to play:
he taps (golpes) the soundboard with A, plays M up then M down I down. He does this at lightening speed too! It sounds odd but really cool at the same time. Very rhythmic and percussive at the same time. I've tried it but it's so hard as to seem impossible.



Jamey -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Nov. 5 2004 18:45:58)

quote:

Some of those ones with the double P up and back down at the end would be good for slow playing but might have too much in them for faster play?
Don't know, don't play those, just a thought.

Jim.


Actually the PAIP one has to be played fast or else it loses the continuous (albeit rhythmic) effect. When played you have to have the fingers and thumb as loose and relaxed as possible. The wrist rotates the hand quickly (slightly clockwise) while the palm of the hand opens up with the P upstroke and ends with the palm closing with the completion of the P downstroke (sort of like the movement your palm makes while squeezing a staple gun). The hand is generally a little flatter while the forearm is more parallel to the soundboard than the normal PAI.

Clear as mud......I know.....



musicalgrant -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Nov. 7 2004 22:41:46)

My God Jamey how many have you got??? LOL you are a genius!!!

I have been taught by Juan Martin,( I hear the booing LOL) and he only uses the minimum, lets face it a triplet is a triplet!!

For continous I uses pinky, a, m i, downwards and it works fine

for triplet, thum up on beat, m down index down.. and then move it through to do 4's etc..

for a 4 a,m,i down and then up back on the beat on a down,

and same for five pinky, a, ,m,i,i etc ...what else do you need? it is hard enough to play the guitar why make it harder than it need be???

Hope this helps, it is more about feeling than pinky this and pinky that....that was what I was told...



Escribano -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Nov. 8 2004 15:22:49)

continuous triplet (abanico) = p↑ m↓ p↓
triplet = a↓ m↓ i↓
4 stroke = a↓ m↓ i↓ i↑
5 stroke = x↓ a↓ m↓ i↓ i↑

That's all I use so far[;)] My teachers, all Andalucian, have not bothered me on my technique, as long as the strokes are in there.



musicalgrant -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Nov. 8 2004 23:12:49)

nice one Escribano, do you find the triplet strong enough with ami? I always found the thumb on the up stroke gives it a pulse, a srtrenght that isnt there with just the fingers, especially when playing for dancers. Maybe ill give the ami a try.

One teacher told me: adown, i down, and i up etc...but I found that ok for solos but not enough for dancers.

Thanks for the ideas



Escribano -> RE: Which rasgueados do you use most often/feel most comfortable with? (Nov. 9 2004 11:17:30)

quote:

do you find the triplet strong enough with ami


Strong enough for me, I flick all three fingers from behind the ball of the thumb and get plenty of power that way. However, I am very inexperienced so I'll keep an open mind and am always experimenting with other methods. These are the ones I am settling into , though I cannot control the abanico as fluently as I would like.



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