to continue or to gave up? (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - to continue or to gave up?: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=126940



Message

HuBaghdadi -> to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 4:43:16)

Hey,
I have been learning playing guitar about one year and 3 months.
My teacher is a virtuoso flamenco player and had done dozens of concerts.
He told me yesterday that I have to change my mentality, I have to think like a player (even an amateur one), I shouldn't thinking of myself like a rookie any more.
He told me I should be able to play what I have learn without breaks and stops.
He told me to play, play play no matter what, just play.
He told me I'm standing on the very important step in my learning (the next 5 or 6 months).
I'm really feeling frustrated these days, when I hear him playing I feel the tremendous gap.
I don't feel my playing, when I hear him playing Romance or Farrucas for example (pieces he taught me), I really hate myself.
Should I continue my journey?
I got the feeling to gave up.



stratos13 -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 4:57:48)

Never give up!
Guitar is the most frustrating instrument on planet earth!
It's not your fault.
One thing i am sure is that you should always do something, lessons or concerts or playing with friends. Now you are young (27 like me) and you can learn to play the guitar really well if you do not give up.
Never give up!
[;)]
What will Tomatito think of you then?



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 4:59:43)

surely you posted this not expecting a negative answer...we're all deeply in love with flamenco art, most of us play the guitar and most of us are never really satisfied with what we do, we always want to play better, cleaner, faster, whatever...it's an everyday struggle with its ups and downs and with a few exceptions we all listen to players much better than us every day...
i'd encourage you to continue your journey, but you know a small break every once in a while doesn't hurt...if you don't pick up your guitar for a week you'll get great satisfaction from it the next time you do and much information, things you'd learned will have settled by then...
you didn't start this to stop in frustration, fight your demons, and believe in yourself because by practicing you ARE improving a bit every day!



Guest -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 5:02:29)

Keep going...or you will hate yourself even more...
Your teacher obviously believes in you....
enjoy his playing but enjoy yours as well...
enjoy and be in awe of the differences but share the love![:D]

beautifully said stratos13...tomatito![:D]



NormanKliman -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 5:07:20)

Hi HuBaghdadi,

Wow, we all answered at almost the same time! [:D] Here's my point of view:

Nobody but you can say whether or not you should give up, but I can give you some questions:

Are you learning very complicated things?

If what you're learning isn't complicated, who says it's easy? Only your virtuoso teacher says this or do other people think that what you're learning is easy, too?

How good is your compás without the guitar? Is it easy for you to follow compás when you listen to a recording?

Is your guitar easy to play? If you play someone else's guitar (a very good one) is there a difference in the feeling of the strings under your fingers, or is there only a difference in sound?

How many teachers do you know? Is there some reason to think that this teacher is very good and you are very bad?

A year and three months isn't very long. It took me longer than that just to get a good rasgueado! Like stratos13 said, the guitar is a difficult instrument. Flamenco is not a simple kind of music; and if you're not surrounded by it, it's not easy to learn.



Ron.M -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 5:08:21)

Depends what you're learning for really...

I never give up, because I'm not trying to go anywhere.

I'm happy to take the guitar out the case and play around for a while when I feel in the mood.

Other times, I just leave it in there when I'm not.

Often for weeks and weeks!

I rarely practise any technical exercises unless I'm just practising some bit that's annoying me.

I'm happy to be a permanent beginner, cause I play around with the guitar for fun.

Not for torture. [:D]

cheers,

Ron



Arash -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 5:15:32)

imo you should give up



aeolus -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 5:29:41)

I think everyone starts out with high expectations but sooner or later a reckoning has to be made as to what is reasonably possible given one's natural aptitude and temperament. Then take what you can from the instrument for enjoyment. I love it's sound and if I can make some nice noises that's enough. If I can put a piece together with some degree of competence, that's a plus.



HuBaghdadi -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 5:35:30)

Thanks all.
Yes, I don't expect negative answers, I just want to know if you passed/passing thought similar emotions.
>>Are you learning very complicated things?
The last three pieces are:
Romance, Farrucas (Juan Serrano), Lagrima (Tarrega)
I have difficulties in three movements in Romance (I'm working on them)
I passed Farrucas (need much more practicing on Legato and scale)
I passed Lagrima (work on left hand is needed)
Doing i,s,a,m rasgueado at the speed 80
I passed every pieces my teacher gave to me but I don't feel I'm doing them beautifully, I don't feel my playing.
My teacher tells me that is because I'm thinking in my hand's movements, thats why I need to play much more, playing should be unconscious act.
>> Is your guitar easy to play?
It is easy (Yamaha CM40)
I want to get a hard one to play.
>>How good is your compás without the guitar? Is it easy for you to follow compás when you listen to a recording?
Not fast pieces .
@Arash:
Why you think I have to give up?
Thanks all.



Arash -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 5:39:52)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HuBaghdadi


@Arash:
Why you think I have to give up?
Thanks all.


hehe, actually i think my answer was the best answer so far.

because it causes anger, like "what? who are you to tell me to give up, you A....?"

and as a response of defiance, you will continue your journey to prove otherwise !

say hello to basic analytic psychology !

---

BTW, nobody quits playing flamenco guitar!
because it is an addiction , worse than drug addiction !
we know it ! you know it!

but a break for a weekend or 2, is ok and acceptable ;-))



gj Michelob -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:00:43)

quote:

imo you should give up


Of all comments, that must be the most encouraging (I am not being sarcastic). Reverse Psychology has its way with some of us, doesn’t it?

My advice however, as in all things in life, is simple: “if it ain’t fun, it ain’t worth the time”.

Whether you are an amateur or a professional, one of the ingredients of success is enjoying what you do, simply because it will allow you to concentrate more and work harder. At times, studying one single form or style may become tedious, quickly precipitating any progress into a stale plateau.

Unless you have any compelling reason to achieve a certain level by a given date, enjoy some diversion, use your techniques to play classical or the blues, arrange a pop song or Christmas carol. This exercise may show you how much you have learned already and yet cannot fully express through bulerias or soleares. We are blessed to have this passion. As I near my 50th birthday (in 2 years really) I find an immense relief in my guitar. Stress, pressure and tension accumulate increasingly faster each day. When I pick up my blanca, I (some may find it ridiculous) thank the Lord for granting me such gift (and Stephen Faulk, for making it playable). You guitar conjures a universe of your own where your heart can rest and your mind wonder safely…. Do not allow stress into it.



Stu -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:02:32)

Yeah good answer arash!! i bet that was the instict he had when reading too!

I often find that one of these periods of "frustarion" is swiftly followed by a leap in ability/technique/ or a mental shift....which then inspires me and keeps me going......

You have to keep going tho......a break is def good, put guitar down for day or two (if ya playing every day)

quote:

My teacher tells me that is because I'm thinking in my hand's movements, thats why I need to play much more, playing should be an unconscious act.


yeah you can only get the moves unconcious by playing more and more and more...how much do you play???? hrs per day???



Ricardo -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:05:08)

quote:

The last three pieces are:
Romance, Farrucas (Juan Serrano), Lagrima (Tarrega)
I have difficulties in three movements in Romance (I'm working on them)
I passed Farrucas (need much more practicing on Legato and scale)
I passed Lagrima (work on left hand is needed)
Doing i,s,a,m rasgueado at the speed 80


With all due respect to your teacher, you should NOT be learning flamenco guitar via pieces, complete pieces. You should only be learning compas (rhythm strumming) and short falsetas of varying degrees of difficulty. In that sense, I understand why you are frustrated. You could have been building a library of say solea, alegrias, bulerias, fandangos, etc falsetas, short ones, of which you can manage to play in rhythm, and mix up or "improvise" between, relatively, simple compas strumming patterns, all the while creating a "flowing" music, even if not with any structure. THAT is flamenco guitar. The way you are learning, so it sounds, is like learning classical guitar. That is not the way IMO.

You may want to ask your teacher, if you want to continue, if he can just give you some short falsetas to master each week, and put the "romance" and Farruca off to the side for the time being.[;)]

Ricardo



Arash -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:06:51)

oh, and something else:

you should also consider to learn other palos than rumba.

looking to your posts, i have the feeling that you are just into "gypsy kings" kind of stuff.
thats ok and good, lots of fun. sounds cool.

i don't know your teacher, but if your teacher is a real virtuoso flamenco guitar player, he should also introduce you to

- bulerias
- alegrias
- taranta
- solea
- etc.......

ask him, if he is able to do that in s PROPER way (correct compas, etc.)

if not, IMO, consider also other teachers (additionaly?) ;-)

IN MY OPINION ;-)



Arash -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:08:21)

sorry, i posted same time as Ricardo.
ok its not exactly same content, but some similarities.



HuBaghdadi -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:15:14)

I spoke with my teacher in the past, he told me he will introduce me other types very soon, once I feel I'm playing naturally (as I said, he told me the next couple of months are very important in my learning).
Actually, he gave a small bulerias piece in the past (Fiesta by Charles Duncan).
Thanks all again.



NormanKliman -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:17:56)

Ha-ha, we're all posting at the same time. I have to check before sending this one. [:D] We are posting similar ideas (palos vs. "pieces").

quote:

I just want to know if you passed/passing thought similar emotions.


It will always be difficult and, if you keep practicing, you will always get better. I agree with Arash and others that stopping can be a good thing, but if you stop for a week it might take you a day or three to get back to your previous level.

It's important to have enough material to keep you interested for a few days without playing everything you know. For example, you spend a few days working on siguiriyas, tangos and picado exercises, then you spend a few days working on bulerías, alegrías and arpeggio exercises, a few days working on taranta, soleá and rasgueados, and maybe a few more days on other things. Then one day you realize that you haven't played siguiriyas in a while (or a classical piece with difficult arpeggios, whatever), and THAT'S where you see the progress: when you go back to something after you haven't played it for a while. I hope you see why it's not the same if you just stop playing for a week![:)]

So it's important to have a lot of material, but it's also "dangerous" to spread out too much. You have to focus on a few specific things and have strategies to deal with saturation.

A year and a half is not long at all. Part of your training should include listening to recordings, following the compás from beginning to end and going back to check if you lose your place.

EDIT:

quote:

Actually, he gave a small bulerias piece in the past


Bulerías is usually the hardest, especially in the beginning.



Ricardo -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:22:02)

quote:

I spoke with my teacher in the past, he told me he will introduce me other types very soon, once I feel I'm playing naturally


Sorry but how can you play "naturally" if you are playing classical guitar pieces?????[&:]



Stu -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:22:06)

quote:

He told me to play, play play no matter what, just play.


i hate advice like this!!!!!

It's romantic nonsense to a beginner! It is true but not easy to do at an early stage in learning....

years ago I went up to a guitarist in a flamenco joint that I'd seen perform elsewhere (and he used to play for my girlfriends dance class) I'd just started playing and liked the coincidence so I went up to his table whilst he was downing tequilas with his dancers... I nervously approached and introduced myself. He seemed dejected and tired of playing "every single night" he said.....

I told him I was learning to play flamenco guitar from some books and he sat up in his chair and said, in a his gravelly spanish accent....."Throw your books away.....play from your heart" as he pounded his chest.......I didn't know what to say really, so he chuckled and said more seriously "no, no. Technique is very important"

Whilst that first bit of advice is true and romantic, at that stage it didn't really help me at all...apart from giving me a nice anecdote to tell my pals.



Arash -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:26:56)

Hossein, is there a video or something from your teacher on youtube?
or a recording from him, playing a palo (other than rumba) you could send ?
what is his name?
thanks



HuBaghdadi -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:32:41)

>>Sorry but how can you play "naturally" if you are playing classical guitar pieces?????
Maybe he is trying to expose me to different worlds and techniques?
Any way, I will talk with him the next lesson.
>>i hate advice like this!!!!!
Maybe he wants me to feel naturally while playing.
I'm not defending my teacher (will, I do, just a little :)), maybe he just has his own methodology.
I will talk to him.



Arash -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 6:51:14)

the reason why i ask all these and why i (and some others?) are concerned a bit is followings:

note: i am not talking about your teacher, because i don't know him, i am talking general.

there are a lot of people who are self-proclaimed teachers of "flamenco guitar".
specially in the middle east area , where there are not so many really good flamenco teachers (but a LOT of people who love flamenco guitar and are interested to learn it), you find such teachers in every street. because everyone wants to learn flamenco guitar.

there is a good market.

what many of those "teachers" actually do, is that they teach some "spanish sounding" stuff, some mutated classical stuff, and maximum some proper Rumba.

interesting thing is: they only teach Beginners !
because they know that they don't know anything about real flamenco and other palos.
for most beginners, something that sounds spanish , is cool.

but honestly, IMO, they waiste the time and Money of the beginners !

beginners should learn from a good FLAMENCO teacher right from the beginning.

thanks god, we now have internet, and you can ask questions here and find out if your teacher is really a good Flamenco Teacher !

you should even prefer some VIDEO lessons through internet, from a GOOD teacher, rather than learning from a bad teacher in your town. because you could also learn many bad habits which are then difficult to change later.

again, i am not talking about your teacher (i don't know him).

but really consider what i said !

they way he is teaching you is a bit suspecious though ! (IMO)



bursche -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 7:10:14)

Imagine your guitar smacked into half. Helps.



Chiste de Gales -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 7:33:07)

I think your teacher is giving you conceptual advice that is beyond your level right now.
You're going to have to practice a lot for you to feel comfortable enough to play more expressively and less robotic.

Practice very slow and very steady.



bursche -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 8:57:01)

quote:

Practice very slow and very steady.


Precisely.

I had a similar impression of my playing some 2 years ago.
My teacher told me then to practice really slowly with a metronome only.
No fast practice at all until I feel safe.
The result was miraculous.



gounaro -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 9:08:48)

Try to learn easy falsetas (bulerias, fandangos, tangos) and try to reach their compass. Simple things and dont get confused. Slowly and simply. That's flamenco. Flamenco is not pieces or songs. Try to improvise and play freely. Dont get angry when something is not going well.

Feel the simple falsetas and dont be stressed!. FLAMENCO IS NOT CLASSICAL MUSIC! [;)]



srshea -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 12:15:58)

You’re obviously the only one who can make the decision whether to keep it up or pack it in; only you know if it’s really in your heart to carry on over the long haul or not. I’d just add a couple of obvious points to keep in mind, which are:

Flamenco is really, really hard. And:

Progress in flamenco is often really, reeeaaally slow, sometimes so imperceptibly slow that it seems like you’re getting nowhere. There have been, and continue to be, so many times when I’ve gotten really frustrated with myself and the progress of my playing, but if I step back and think about where I was six months ago or a year ago or whatever, I realize that there are a lot of things I’m able to play and am able to understand now that I absolutely could NOT play and was totally, cluelessly in the dark about in the not too distant past.

I don’t even have to think that far back to recall the still vivid memory of sitting in the sun on my girlfriend’s back porch with my newly acquired, bottom of the line Cordoba F-Whatever, totally, maniacally excited about this crazy music I had just discovered, and looking down at the guitar in my hands and having ZERO idea what I was supposed to be doing with it. Couldn’t put two chords together to approximate an actual flamenco palo; couldn’t play a single rasgeado; nothin’, nada. I’m definitely still in the early stages of learning to play, but just a quick reflection on what’s happened in those past few years reminds me that I’ve learned A LOT in that time.

I think your teacher’s right when he says that you’re coming up on a crucial stage in your development. There’s a lot of stuff that you have to work on deliberately and specifically, but there’s also a lot of stuff that, assuming you’re following a productive path in your studies(I think you’re getting some good advice here about some better approaches you could be taking) and doing A LOT of listening to the right stuff, starts naturally falling into place after a couple of years. It all starts adding up after a while……

So, don’t give up! Or do give up if you want. Just keep in mind that there is a light at the end of the tunnel, or rather, lots of little lights at the ends of all the dark, sometimes cramped and confusing tunnels you’re going to be making your way through……



bursche -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 12:45:48)

Back again, Adam?

You've been away for quite a while, nice to have you back here.



Guest -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 13:02:57)

'srshea.....

human nature perhaps but some people think the light at the end of the tunnel is a train........



srshea -> RE: to continue or to gave up? (Feb. 8 2010 13:12:57)

Hi Maximilian,

Thanks for the welcome.

I’ve been out of commission of quite a while. Long, boring, sad story regarding a finger problem that has made the last several months a total bust. Short version: middle left fingernail started separating from the finger last June. Unsuccessfully tried to manage the problem, got reeeaally discouraged, and basically gave up the whole deal for a while. It’s been a looong time healing, but things have gotten mostly better now, though I have to carefully monitor playing time and be really circumspect in my fretting technique (and actually have to fret with that finger at an angle that’s less than ideal as far as proper technique goes. Not good, but better than not playing).

So, thoughts of giving up or keeping on have been very much in my mind over last half year. All of my playing and practice time got reapportioned out to other activities that have now taken precedence over the guitar, so I’m currently trying to work my way back into things, looking to make the best possible use of my more limited playing time…..



Page: [1] 2    >   >>

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET