chord help (Full Version)

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rickm -> chord help (Oct. 20 2004 17:39:48)

I keep seeing a !@#$% chord that is 2nd fret a string, 3rd fret d string and 2nd fret g string. Sabicas uses it a lot in his solea arpeggios and if you have bronce gitano you might know what I mean. He goes from a am arpeggio to the top part of g chord to this thing, which Im thinking is part of a f chord, with that 2nd fret embellishment. Make sense? it is difficult to transition to as it does not seem to be a normal chord, (at least at speed)< I guess my question is 1) is there actually a chord like that, or is it a offshoot of a g to f chord progression? It can be achieved by dropping that 2nd finger from the a string to the g string, but seems unwieldy to me. I know, clear as mud



Escribano -> RE: chord help (Oct. 20 2004 19:36:22)

It's F flat5 if you only play those 3 strings, E -9 sus4 if you play all the strings.

Impressed?[8D]



rickm -> RE: chord help (Oct. 21 2004 3:37:19)

yeah definitely, but why can't we just stay with e's and e minors and stuff?[:D]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: chord help (Oct. 21 2004 16:04:24)

Simon,
doesn't it sound like a B half diminished chord, the kind that always resolves to E7?



Escribano -> RE: chord help (Oct. 21 2004 19:49:50)

Close, it also B flat5 7th or A add9 aug5 but it is usual to name the chord with the shortest name i.e. F flat5



Jon Boyes -> RE: chord help (Oct. 22 2004 8:02:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Escribano
Close, it also B flat5 7th or A add9 aug5 but it is usual to name the chord with the shortest name


Thats not strictly true. It depends on the function of the chord in the overall progression. ie it depends on the key (or mode) the progression is in, what comes before and after and so on. You have to consider where the harmony is taking you, where the 'tonal centre' of the chord is.

Picking the chord with the shortest name may give you a chord spelling that is simply not logical in context.

This is why automatic 'chord namer' software or gadgets will not always be much help (particularly in modal music like much of flamenco).

Jon



steenland -> RE: chord help (Oct. 31 2004 4:26:06)

GTrr66:

TablEdit calls it FMb5 for 3 strings, and FM7b5 if all strings. It is tabbed in TablEdit
on Sal's Soap Box.

Recuerdos,

T. J. Steenland



steenland -> RE: chord help (Oct. 31 2004 5:17:42)

GTrr66:

Find this chord a couple of places in TablEdit of Bronce Gitano. Goes from F M to G sus4 to this chord which calls F M add9/5-, but again would be F M/5- if only strings 3, 4, and 5 are played.

Recuerdos,

T. J. Steenland



rickm -> RE: chord help (Oct. 31 2004 13:42:23)

Mr Steenland, you are right, it is in Bronc Gitano, and in there lies the problem (sortof) I have Dennis Kosters books and he was a understudy of Sabicas, no where does he reference that chord. IT is a difficult transition and I might assume it came from Alain 'Faucher transcription (which I have also) I am wondering if this is a regularly used chord or might it be a mistake by Mr. Faucher, who I am sure has more scholarship in this regard than I, but I dont think it is a regularly used chord in flamenco. I might surely be wrong., If I play it as a regular f, the difference is barely noticeable. I do know Sabicas used some different fingering, but this seems a little weird to me. Comments/



steenland -> RE: chord help (Oct. 31 2004 15:33:56)

Gtrr66:


Have two transcriptions, one by Joseph Trotter and the other by Nikolaus Reimann.
The first is in musical notation only, the other is in TableEdit.

Removing the cejilla at 3 from TableEdit, the musical notation agrees at Measure 113,
where the chord in question is.

Recuerdos,

T. J. Steenland



Jon Boyes -> RE: chord help (Nov. 1 2004 8:25:19)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gtrr66@msn.com
Mr Steenland, you are right, it is in Bronc Gitano, and in there lies the problem (sortof) I have Dennis Kosters books and he was a understudy of Sabicas, no where does he reference that chord. IT is a difficult transition and I might assume it came from Alain 'Faucher transcription (which I have also) I am wondering if this is a regularly used chord or might it be a mistake by Mr. Faucher,


A few thoughts to put this in perspective which hopefully won't confuse:

Firstly, flamencos never play the same thing the same way twice, and although Sabicas was a noted soloist and composer, if two different recordings exist of Bronce Gitano, I would be amazed if they are the same, note for note. So my first question is whether Faucher and Koster are working from the same source?

Secondly, whereas Faucher tends to transcribe exactly what is being played from a particular source, Koster is known for his work as a method writer - would he not be simplifying what Sabicas played in order to come with playable, yet authentic falsetas? (Thats what Juan Martin does, for example).

In terms of its legitimacy as a chord in the context you gave, yes, absolutely. Whether you spell it as a Bdim or Fflat 5, it gives a strong resolution to the E that I assume follows, so it is a nice substitution for a regular F in the standard Am - G - F - E cadence.

At the end of the day, the choice is really yours how you play it. No one is going to come up and say 'hey, that guy just played a Sabicas falseta and he missed the flat5 in that chord, thats outrageous!' [:D] Flamenco has always been about taking what has gone before, and adding your own personal twist, after all.

So play it if you like it and you can, if you don't then don't worry about it.

Jon

PS little is said in flamenco methods about fingering, but the trickier stuff you get into, the more important good fingering becomes. Rather than seeing a section of music as three or four entirely seperate chords you have to examine the process of how you get from A to B. If you find a particular transition difficult, maybe you need to re-finger the preceding chord, for example. Maybe you can use a guide finger or a hinge barre to help move from one chord to the other. There are lots of little tricks like this that classical guitarists use to facilitate some incredibly awkward transitions in their repertoire.



Escribano -> RE: chord help (Nov. 1 2004 9:23:46)

quote:

it is a nice substitution for a regular F in the standard Am - G - F - E cadence

This chord pattern is often played (usually alzepua but also as an arpeggio) in the F part of a solea faleseta descending to E.



rickm -> RE: chord help (Nov. 1 2004 14:07:36)

ok, I appreciate the replies, and I have a better understanding now of the process and outcome. I think you are right that dropping one note might not be the end of the world, but at the same token it might be a good discipline to practice it more [8|] I have become suspicious of some of the transcriptions I have observed and do note several different versions for the same piece. A good example is Sabicas's malaguena, I think I have seen at least 3 for the same piece, and I do know that he played different versions at different times. But it makes it hard if you are trying to play in a definitive manner. I have had quality players who played it differently and each emphatically states they are playing the correct version. SOrt of like Hendrix, there is lots of versions, but only one master. I guess there is latitude with flamenco, but I would like to be accurate as well. anyway thanks again for everyones input and it makes it nice to have people on this forum who are musically expert and can have a better sense of it than I do.



Jamey -> RE: chord help (Nov. 3 2004 19:12:27)

quote:

PS little is said in flamenco methods about fingering, but the trickier stuff you get into, the more important good fingering becomes. Rather than seeing a section of music as three or four entirely seperate chords you have to examine the process of how you get from A to B. If you find a particular transition difficult, maybe you need to re-finger the preceding chord, for example. Maybe you can use a guide finger or a hinge barre to help move from one chord to the other. There are lots of little tricks like this that classical guitarists use to facilitate some incredibly awkward transitions in their repertoire.


Jon, do you know of any resources that elaborate on these kinds of "tricks" and fingering approaches?

I often get tangled up on my own fingers, only to see a video or live performance of the piece being played and realize that there was a "secret" to playing a given phrase, that I was making it too hard when there's a cleaner-easier-more efficient way of doing it.



Jon Boyes -> RE: chord help (Nov. 4 2004 8:12:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jamey
Jon, do you know of any resources that elaborate on these kinds of "tricks" and fingering approaches?


No, I'm afraid is the short answer. I haven't come across any serious discussion of fingering in flamenco literature (yet)

If you study classical guitar, you are taught this as you go along, and learn to see a piece of music as something that continually flows, as opposed to a serious of entirely seperate chords. Take something like Cavatina (theme from the Deerhunter) for example. It is all based around chords, many of them difficult to finger (it was written originally for piano), and very hard to get from A to B most of the time. To play it convincingly, your fingers have to be constantly in motion, always anticipating the next chord. From the viewers perepective, you probably wouldn't even notice most these things, they can be very subtle and very quick.

In good classical methods you will find fingering discussed in relation to specific pieces, and how to accomplish difficult transitions, but of course that would mean you wading through a lot of stuff that is irrelevant to flamenco or stuff that may not be immediately useful to you (eg few serious classical methods are written in tab.)

Best thing I can say is if you find a certain transition difficult, rather than simply practicing it over and over, its often more useful to look at what comes before and how you finger that.Eg in bulerias going from Bb to A, you have choices on how to finger that A - sometimes the 'flamenco way' of a partial barre with index and second finger on the C# is the best option, sometimes not. Depends on what comes next.

The following can also help in difficult transitions, depending on the situation:
-landing the fingers on a chord in the order they are played (if an arpeggio), rather than landing them all at once
-staring to move the fingers in a chord after their note has been played
- for big stretches, landing the weakest finger first (for most people, the pinky or ring finger)
-using a guide finger: moving from chord A to B, is there a finger you can leave in place making light contact with a particular string as you change?
-for long shifts across the neck, rather than trying to move across the neck and rearrange your fingers all in one movement, practicing the lift-rearrange-move-put down sequence
-hinge barres

All depends on the situation of course.

HTH.

Jon



musicalgrant -> RE: chord help (Nov. 4 2004 22:28:08)

Great advice here, it made me think of when I used to struggle with certain classical pieces in the 7th or 8th position and then you see the masters glide up with ease. One thing that might help, or might not, is that I was always taught to (when possible) take advantage of notes that can be played on open strings, this will often ease transitions to awkward postions or even smooth out a melody, or even give more sustain!

[;)]



Patrick -> RE: chord help (Nov. 4 2004 22:44:31)

Jamey,

Oscar Herreo covers a lot of these issues in his third video of his three video series. He talks a lot about using open and guide strings.

Pat



Jamey -> RE: chord help (Nov. 5 2004 6:20:10)

I REALLY wish you hadn't said that. Those videos are a sore spot for me. I bought all three together as a bundle off of eBay from this guy who runs a music store in the U.S. When I got the parcel there was only the first two videos. [:@][:@]

The guy claims he sent all three. Then he contacts me a month later to say that he has another copy albeit in Spanish and that I could have it for a low price if I was still interested.
"What!!!! Why you little.....mmmmph...erg....arg....RRRRRRAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRR!!!!!!"
(* rips off shirt only to find that he's still pastey white and not green like he'd imagined*)

Good thing for him he lives far away, else he'd find out what 195 pounds of angry Irish Canadian feels like.

Yeah, I wish that video showed up with the rest. Yet another reason I should have seen it.



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