What makes a solo? (Full Version)

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Jim Opfer -> What makes a solo? (Oct. 17 2004 17:51:07)

Nearly every player I can think of seem to compose their solos as a sequence of falsetas arranged together around rasgueado passages, useually very complex but non the less, tied together as a string of individual bits.

Vicenta Amigo however, stands out as being different in that his music is arranged from start to end. It seems hard to borrow a bit of VA to incorporate into your own playing as somehow, it jumps out as being different and is instantly recognisable.

Paco's more recent compositions are a bit like this but less so.

I guess this takes VA away from traditional flamenco playing and just wondered what you thought about this observation?

Jim.



Ron.M -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 17 2004 21:00:12)

Going right back to the basics Jim, Paco Peña once said that solo guitar was an imperfect attempt of trying to recreate the mood of a juerga with just one component.
This is the best definition I've heard to date.

cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 17 2004 21:25:59)

Vicente doesn't call his recent albums "flamenco" but "fusion." I think this gives a good hint as just how different he is from the "juergao" style of composing (good reference, Ron). There is song, and there is jam. Song usually has analagous structural units to verse, chorus, maybe subchorus, tags, hooks, etc; while jam has no recurring or thematic material. Vicente plays songs, as he has hooks and definiable structure. Also, he usually has hummable melodies, very important for memorable hooks.



Jamey -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 1:37:46)

Vicente Amigo composes musical arrangements completely from beginning to end. I think his whole approach to creating a piece is exactly that, he's creating a piece. I think many artists that are flamenco players tend to put things in to create impact or intensity by way of complex rhythms and plays on certain techniques or compas. They come up with falsetas half by accident half by inclination and the result is usually a smoothed out version of what they patched together while they were "messing around". Temper this with the odd nod to a maestro of a past generation (part of a falseta or a commonly used phrase that had it's origins decades before) and you get their resulting piece.

Vicente is different in this, it is often unified and cohesive in it's theme (or undertone). His arrangements often sound like they are soundscores to some cinematic experience where there's a visual story being told and the music is helping in that telling. It's hard to explain but he definitely is doing something different that most others. It's almost as if he's seeing something unfold in his mind's eye while composing/playing. Gerardo Nuñez sometimes shows signs of doing the same but then he throws in some phrase or falseta that he'll use as a signature and it ruins the sense of "cohesive story" that you sometimes get with Amigo.

blah blah blah....I'm rambling....to much caffeine....



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 3:09:56)

Jamey, no, I hear you, man. Actually, I enjoy the "cinematic" feel of some of his work and is something I have wanted to do for awhile now. The orchestra, of course, helps to give his pieces that depth. His latest album even has a cohesive feel to it, I think.



Jon Boyes -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 8:53:29)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Going right back to the basics Jim, Paco Peña once said that solo guitar was an imperfect attempt of trying to recreate the mood of a juerga with just one component.


Yes - that the tocaors falsetas should mimic the cante, and that the percussive effects of rasgueado and golpe should be used to give the impression of zapateado (dancers footwork). Food for thought.

Jon



Jon Boyes -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 9:47:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
I guess this takes VA away from traditional flamenco playing and just wondered what you thought about this observation?


Some argue that even solo flamenco guitar is not a viable expression of flamenco, though I think thats a bit like arguing that the world is flat.

IMO, once you dismantle the compas completely, then it is no longer flamenco, no matter how famous the guitarist. Doesn't mean to say its not good of course, and Vicente is a beautiful player.

I only have one Vicente album (the first one), and on that you can certainly identify familiar structures. I was playing around with Tio Arango a few weeks back, and the first thing I did was sit down and mark out on the music: "Introduction, rasgueado compas 1, falseta one, ras no2, falseta 2,.." etc. Certainly as far as that piece goes, the typical structure is all there, although as we know he plays loose with the compas timing - his 12 beat cycle is far from metronomic.

I must say that after working through this and looking at some of his other pieces I came to the conclusion that Vicente comes up with some of the nicest chords in the business. Huge great rolling things with lots of open strings and ambiguous harmony. That opening chord on Tio Arango is a good example - its a real beauty.

..er back to your question, Jim, I think I'm saying 'yes'. [:D]

Jon



Ron.M -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 11:09:14)

I think a lot of guitarists, (especially Nuñez and Amigo) like to experiment outside the confines of Flamenco.
Which is their right of course.
These guys are top Flamenco guitarists, but that's not to say they must always play Flamenco.
They may use some of the elements (ie cante) in their albums, but in this case I think the role is reversed in that the singer is adding to the track under the direction of the guitarist.
As well as that, these guys have a living to make, and obviously wish to appeal to the largest audience, as well as explore their ideas as musicians and guitarists outwith Flamenco.
I've heard that Jose Merce also records popular stuff, but that doesn't make him any less of a great Flamenco singer. Same with Dancers who wish to experiment with Modern Dance.
I like hearing these guys most when they play Flamenco, but that's just personal taste here.

cheers

Ron



Escribano -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 14:03:16)

quote:

I've heard that Jose Merce also records popular stuff


My theory of what makes something popular to the masses:

1. Foot tapping 3/4 or 4/4 compas i.e Tangos or Rumba
2. Memorable hooks - the lyric/chorus/theme
3. Anthemic

e.g. Entre Dos Aguas, Como El Agua, Viva Espagna[;)], The Birdy Song[:'(]



Jamey -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 14:27:05)

quote:

Jamey, no, I hear you, man. Actually, I enjoy the "cinematic" feel of some of his work and is something I have wanted to do for awhile now. The orchestra, of course, helps to give his pieces that depth. His latest album even has a cohesive feel to it, I think.


True. Listen to his theme from "Habla con Ella" where El Pele chimes in at the end. I really enjoy that piece. Orchestra and all. Amigo just seems to have this innate sense of balance with his music. If we forget flamenco for second and just listen to his music as a musical arrangement and don't concern ourselves with tradition, you realize he has this ability to add "just enough" without overpowering or overshadowing the overall composition. There is another guitarist from Jerez, Juan Diego that has a few pieces that do this but not with the same consistency ("Rondeñas Del Agüelo" for example). Amigo's "Sierra del Agua" is another one like this, almost dreamlike.



Kate -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 15:50:26)

Jose Merce works at both the flamenco and the pop market. I believe when he went to the US he did both syles in his concerts but when playing in Spain he keeps them seperate. I saw him last year in a theatre with a pure flamenco audience, but am told he has also come to Granada and played the sports stadium with sell out crowds of screaming girls. Clever man.

And yes Simon you are right, commercial or pop flamenco usually means rumba and tangos. At the Eshavira they play the tango and rumba from Emilio's CD more than any other. They are also the ones that get radio play.

Kate



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 17:32:46)

Maybe for one of our forum collaborations can be a "commercial" piece. Have to pay the bills somehow, right, Simon? :)



Escribano -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 18:39:58)

Strange, I was thinking exactly the same thing all day. Where do we start? A rumba, tangos?. I would like to play bass but not sure how to go about it. I'll set up a discussion in the flamenco jam section. Who's in?



Ron.M -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 20:06:14)

quote:

IMO, once you dismantle the compas completely, then it is no longer flamenco, no matter how famous the guitarist


I don't think it even stops at that Jon.

I mean, I heard a beautiful Samba by Vincente Amigo this morning.
Now, before everybody jumps on me (LOL!)....

If someone plays Samba chords, Samba phrasing, to a Samba rhythm, is it Samba?
Or is it Flamenco, because it's played by a top Flamenco guitarist?
The music is absolutely beautiful, but I'd have to hesitate in calling it Flamenco.

I could play...say "Scotland the Brave", dead on Bulerias compás....
But is that Flamenco, just because the compás is there?
Or because I fit a rasgueado in?

Or is a "folk" music more complex than that?

I think it is.

Scottish folk music is fairly unadventurous musically, so a while ago some Scottish Folk musicians started using Traditional Irish instruments along with Tradititional Irish chords, phrasing and general "feel".

The result?

Secondhand Irish music! LOL!

I think that back in the 70's, Paco de Lucía developed Flamenco guitar both in solo and accompaniment forms that came from within his own culture and imagination.
I think that's what makes him unique in his place in the development of Flamenco guitar and gives him the respect of his contemporaries IMO.


cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 20:35:38)

Ron,
Vicente doesn't call his recent albums flamenco, but fusion. It's no insult to say what you said, it's true.



Ron.M -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 21:03:30)

Yeah Mike,
And no insult to Vincente either!
He's a suberb guitarist and can play Flamenco with the best of them when he feels like it.
But a lot of folk think that this stuff is "real" Flamenco.
Which it isn't.
It's just great guitar stuff.
Unless we all go down the road of calling everything Flamenco...from Manolo de Huelva to the Cheeky Girls... LOL!
Then, there can be no more arguments about what is and what isn't. LOL!

cheers

Ron



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 18 2004 22:36:21)

It's a waste of time labeling these kind of things. You heard the story about the Andalucians whispering behind Sabicas' back, saying that he wasn't a real flamenco as he was not from Southern Spain.

Actually, a funny story: On Saturday, I had a gig which was a "jump band" kind of thing. I played a 3 hour gig with a guitarist and a percussionist with whom I had never even rehearsed before! The guitarist sent me some charts (chords, melody, and structure) of some songs and his CD. We played the gig and even did about six songs that I have never even looked at before... it was kind of fun, the uncertainty of not knowing when you are going to crash and burn!

He told me a story about a gig he played... he had crafted a "Spanishy" version of "LIght my Fire" by the Doors, and while he was playing, felt a presence behind him. The manager, it turned out, leaned very close, and softly but authoritatively said, "We'll have no more Doors songs here from now on." The guitarist was pretty offended the manager had decided to curtail his artistic choices with such cheek, and said to me, "Well, I don't know what his problem was, did he think I was going to launch into a Doors set? And besides, Jose Feliciano played "Light My Fire" and he's a flamenco guitarist, isn't he?" In the face of his indignation I just shrugged... you know.



gerundino63 -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 19 2004 11:15:04)

Hi All!

I have a rather recent interview with Amigo, it is in duch, so I try to tanslate some relevant things here.:

"I am busy right now with a record, and I have a lot of ideas, I do not know wich form it will be, more or less tradittional, but in any case things that are very flamenco. Allways will the things on my records be very flamenco, becäuse I am a flamenco guitarist.And I have a lot of respect for the tradition."

Other quote:
"One thing you must not forget, is, all the people that are so traditionalistic, forget that I am even more traditionalistic than them. Every flamencoguitarist that lives and knows the flamenco, is more traditionalistic than every critici. I know for sure"

Other Quote:
(He is talking now about his new album)
"I have made a solea, that lies in the length of the one in Cuidad de las Idea, i would like to say to the flamenco critics: If the solea on that record is not flamenco, what do they mean than with flamenco?"

Hope you understand my english, if you don't understand it good enough, ask me, I will try to translate it in a better way.

Peter

P.S. The whole interview came from: Tablao flamenco no 23
A duch flamenco magazin.



Jim Opfer -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 19 2004 12:09:26)

Thanks for that Peter,

Sort of confirms my own feelings about VA.

I've come to the conclusion having listened to him for some years now, that he is in the process of mapping out a new direction for FLAMENCO music. A bit like PdL did back then.
The problem is that we resist seeing it that way because he's so different/advanced that we don't recognise VA's contribution as being pure flamenco.

I believe his music is pure and whilst I understand that the word 'flamenco' relates only to cante, guitar being Toque flamenco, in the case of Vicente, I consider his music to be pure flamenco.

I'd have to add that I don't attempt to play any of his music. As I said at the start of this thread, it can't be disected or used in bits and is unique.

Jim.



Ron.M -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 19 2004 14:37:39)

Thanks Peter,
Well, Vincente is a million times more knowledgeable about Flamenco than I can ever hope to be, so if he says that everything he plays is pure Flamenco with great respect to the tradition, then it must be.
But that just leaves me more puzzled than ever.
I have some recordings of Samba groups, complete with beautiful guitar playing, "breathy" vocals and horn sections (and even harmonica), which I got in Brazil almost 30 years ago.
Little did I know that I was glimpsing the future for Flamenco back then! LOL!

I guess I must just be a Dinosaur....

In another 30 years could we see the demise of the acoustic nylon string guitar in favour of a solid electric guitar?
Perhaps with pick style playing too... (no need to worry about nails ever again!)

If you reckon not, then why not?

It would also allow a greater pallete of tone colours possible too, since FX boxes and MIDI interfaces could be used with ease.

Surely if it's done with respect to the tradition then it will just be "evolution"?
I'd be most interested to hear folk's views on this.

(Aaron and Stephen.....start preparing for the future! ToddK...just hang in there man! [;)])

cheers

El Dinosoro



Jon Boyes -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 19 2004 15:40:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M
Thanks Peter,
Well, Vincente is a million times more knowledgeable about Flamenco than I can ever hope to be, so if he says that everything he plays is pure Flamenco with great respect to the tradition, then it must be.


Without seeing the full interview, with everything in context, properly translated, I would take the above interview clips with a pinch of salt (no disrespect, Peter). There are simply too many variables.

How on earth does it square with Mike's claim that Vicente describes his work as fusion?

Jon



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 19 2004 16:28:25)

From a flamenco-world interview:

My music is like a kind of fusion without labels... and it's because that's my way of feeling. I go out into the street and a lot of things from different places might catch my eye, from many different styles and different people. That's how my music is. What's true is that I don't like to call something flamenco that isn't flamenco. But it's also true that in my music there are things which are very flamenco, and others which are not. I don't have to put limits on my imagination.



Ron.M -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 19 2004 21:07:20)

Mike,
I read a thing on the Internet a while ago.
It was from a little interview that Gerardo Nuñez gave, (I think after receiving an award for something or other.)
In it he said something like...
"If folk want to sit on their arses in Jerez playing Moraito stuff, then good luck to them, but it ain't for me".
(Now a lot of folk took that as an attack on Moraito, but I'm sure that sensible folk can see where the guy is coming from here and there was no critisizm intended whatsoever.)
Anyway, I had the opportunity of watching him play the same week on Ondajerez TV and though I was blown away by his technique and virtuosity, I wasn't that enamoured by his material.
Having a look through Flamenco-World later that week, I came across some other stuff he had done and to my amazement, it was amongst the best Flamenco accompaniment I've ever heard.
I thought to myself....
"Well, well ...You can take the boy out of Jerez, but you can't take Jerez out of the boy".

Herein lies the danger IMO of foreigners listening, liking, and choosing to play stuff by folk like Nuñez and Amigo...yeah and even Paco now.
If you are new to Flamenco, and just like the tunes, then my advice would be just get the tabs and follow it note by note, or work it out by ear like that Russian fellah did.
Even if you fall out of compás, and don't really have a clue what you are playing, then what the hell...most folk won't realize anyway!
Nobody's listening to that amongst friends or family or even a general Public audience outside Andalucia.
And you'll still get top marks for your picado and rasgueado!
But if you want to understand more about Flamenco, just for you, yourself...... then it's definitely a long haul!

cheers

Ron



Mark2 -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 20 2004 16:32:04)

quote:

Nearly every player I can think of seem to compose their solos as a sequence of falsetas arranged together around rasgueado passages, useually very complex but non the less, tied together as a string of individual bits.

Vicenta Amigo however, stands out as being different in that his music is arranged from start to end. It seems hard to borrow a bit of VA to incorporate into your own playing as somehow, it jumps out as being different and is instantly recognisable.

Paco's more recent compositions are a bit like this but less so.

I guess this takes VA away from traditional flamenco playing and just wondered what you thought about this observation?

Jim.


It's funny, that's exactly what people said about PdL-that his solos were "composed" as whole pieces of music instead of falsetas bolted together, and I think they were-especially during and after "Fuente". What about Mario's Impetu? Finally , I don't see a problem with taking a few of vicente's falsetas and sticking them in a buleria, a solea, a tango , etc. I think it may "jump out" to you because your so used to hearing the pieces as a whole. I have often heard a player throw in a PdL falseta, and it also stood out to me, but because I was familiar with it, not because it was not appropriate.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 20 2004 17:36:33)

I have to say, maybe Ron's rubbing off on me, but in my mind and this classification is not meant to influence anyone else, I am starting to feel there is flamenco and then there are these composed flamenco-fusion pieces. To me there is a dichotomy for what you would play for a dancer and what you would do on your own concept album. I would never play a Vicente Amigo falseta for a singer or a dancer, it just wouldn;'t sound right to me. To me, the jazzy chords and cool, lush arpeggios are beautiful but sound out of place with stomping and rajo. That's just me and what I personally enjoy. I'm officially old fasioned now...Ron has won!



Ron.M -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 20 2004 20:46:35)

Nobody's won anything Mike, but I'm glad that you maybe now differentiate between "experimental virtuoso Flamenco Guitar" and "Flamenco Guitar".
Remember these virtuoso guys who do their own thing, can in an instant, accompany the most challenging singers and dancers with no problem at all.
But they got fed up with that, for their own reasons, and moved on.
If you ever learn a Vincente Amigo or Gerardo Nuñez solo piece it will add practically zero to your understanding of Flamenco as a whole.
These kind of compositions are impossible to somehow "reverse engineer" back to the fundamentals IMO.
They will just be good flashy pieces as in the Classical repertoire.
I mean by that, they will never give you the insight of the underlying structure of that particular toque, so that one day you can maybe express yourself in that medium in your own personal way.
They will always just be virtuoso pieces, if you see what I mean.
Meanwhile these guys couldn't care less, 'cos they already know the most complex Flamenco forwards and backwards with no trouble at all.
Great to listen to, but be wary of copying.

cheers

Ron



Jim Opfer -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 20 2004 21:49:08)

quote:

I don't see a problem with taking a few of vicente's falsetas and sticking them in a buleria, a solea, a tango , etc. I think it may "jump out" to you because your so used to hearing the pieces as a whole. I have often heard a player throw in a PdL falseta, and it also stood out to me, but because I was familiar with it, not because it was not appropriate


Hi Mark2,

The thing is (well to my ear and I recognise what you are saying about familiarity) Vicente Amigo seems to have a musical scale (not litteral) a type of mode that's different to all others.
If you pick out a 1 or 2 min snip from any of his music and try to slip it into something you happen to be playing, like placing a bit of his 'Cordoba' into your Solea, then right away it jars. It's as if his music has to flow his way. Yet, it's a fact that these recordings are artificial in that they are just frozen in time on the CD, when he plays live, he playes differences but again in his own scale or mode.
Very strange and sheer genius.

Jim.



Jim Opfer -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 20 2004 22:02:06)

quote:

If you ever learn a Vincente Amigo or Gerardo Nuñez solo piece it will add practically zero to your understanding of Flamenco as a whole.


Ron,

I don't know if I agree with this.

I don't care much for Gerardo as he leaves me cold. You know however that Vicente attracts my attention. I could never play any of his music, at laest that's how I feel given that I believe he's impossible to extract bits and pieces from, but I know that from listening to him and observing his playing on this new DVD, a whole new dimension is displayed on screen, not to copy but real inspiration at various levels, musical, technique and encouragement to compose.

He clearly displays real flamenco playing, blistering rasguedos with neat licks that are fresh and new. Tight modern interpretation of compas. All very valuable lessons to learn.

Jim.



Jim Opfer -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 20 2004 22:12:45)

quote:

I would never play a Vicente Amigo falseta for a singer or a dancer


Mmmm..! MdM, there's great stuff there to encourage your own falsetas.
My favorite is VA Solea por Medio 'En tu silencio' from Jose Merce 'Del Amanecer'. Beautiful passage at 1.54min. I'd love to be able to throw that in sometime, somewhere.
I don't feel that VA solo's can be disected but these throw away falsetas por cante, are rich pickings.
If you have the CD, check it out and let me know what you think.

Jim.



Mark2 -> RE: What makes a solo? (Oct. 20 2004 22:30:08)

quote:

I would never play a Vicente Amigo falseta for a singer or a dancer, it just wouldn;'t sound right to me. To me, the jazzy chords and cool, lush arpeggios are beautiful but sound out of place with stomping and rajo. That's just me and what I personally enjoy. I'm officially old fasioned now...Ron has won!


But vicente does. If you listen to the records on which he plays for singers, you'll hear some of the same falsetas he plays on his records, and of course , they work fine, lush chords and all. Of course, if it's just not your bag, that's fine. It depends on the singer too, though. I've had a singer from spain, who also plays guitar, ask for Cmaj 7 in the cambio of solea por arriba, for example. there are dancers and singers out there who want modern sounds, and those that don't. One dancer i play for on oaccasion loves modern sounds and loves to be surprised. Others want something more traditional. I think it should be up to the guitarist, but that's part of why I don't spend much time playing for singers and dancers!



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