RE: Listen to this (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - RE: Listen to this: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=12483



Message

Conrad -> RE: Listen to this (Oct. 18 2004 22:14:19)

Hey, Miguel! Man, it was just a comparison of visual features. I don't know anything about David Carradine, except that he looks like Paco de Lucia. I didn't mean to offend you.

-Con



Escribano -> RE: Listen to this (Oct. 18 2004 22:31:22)

I'm confused, which login name were you using since April? That might clarify some things.



Conrad -> RE: Listen to this (Oct. 18 2004 23:38:48)

I think I've always been using "cnotecon", but I will change it if you like. Thanks again for your help, and I am jealous of your new abode. Congrats

-conrad



Mark2 -> RE: Listen to this (Oct. 29 2004 18:20:25)

quote:

Mark,
if you are looking for "Claptons" of flamenco, look no further than your Manitas and then the one and only Carlos Montoya! Although he actually did perform with some of the greats, such as Carmen Amaya. And finally, I have to mention Paco Pena, and finally....Juan Martin! There, I said it!


Well, I did mention Manitas, but ask any flamenco about him and see if they think he is a flamenco "star". Same with Juan Martin. Carlos and Paco Pena are Spanish, so they don't count. No flamenco "Clapton" yet...................



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Listen to this (Oct. 29 2004 20:23:24)

Mark,
the point, I think, is that Clapton is NOT a blues star, he just is publicized as one (and accepted by one by the major public). True, he is embraced by such greats as Buddy Guy, but I have heard interviewees say: "What's Buddy going to say, he's getting rich because of Clapton!" I have quite a few Clapton albums--he is responsible for leading me to the blues. But once I got there, I wouldn't listen to Clapton for blues anymore than I would listen to Jesse Cook for flamenco.

Carlos Montoya filled stadiums, I believe, playing laughable flamenco! This, I believe, is truly analagous, regardless of birthplace.



Mark2 -> RE: Listen to this (Oct. 31 2004 18:25:34)

I disagree. I think Clapton is a blues star. I grew up in the sixties and seventies and know well some of his pre Cream work where he played classic blues solos. Played better than many many black blues players. I also disagree about Carlos. I saw him play and his ras and picado were incredibly powerful. He was the first solo flamenco "star"-he had no guide as to what to play or how to play it. He played for people who knew nothing about flamenco. I'm sure you've had the experience of playing buleria for people who couldn't find the beat. Imagine that every night. At a cetain point, it's entirely possible one might alter what they play to please their audience. I was responding to Simon's thought that there may soon be a star flamenco soloist who is not from Spain and does not accompany. I don't think so. Credibility in flamenco, unlike blues, comes from accompaning professional flamencos. Hard to be a real star without credibility from your peers. Carlos Monyoa did start out with that credibility. And he has lost it only amoung those who focus solely on his solo career and those who never saw him play. Before he became famous he was a top accompanist. Equating the "flamenco" of Jesse Cook to the blues of Calpton is not just a stretch, but a giant leap across a canyon. I don't think you can successfully bridge that gulf. Finally, I doubt that Buddy Guy needs Clapton to get a gig at this point.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 1 2004 17:31:04)

Mark,
yes, well everyone has their own opinion... Clapton has had a wonderful career, I have heard most of it through his recordings. I think he is a great player but I don't like his blues. As for Montoya, I don't care for what he plays either. He had great ligado on a guitar with extra low tension and action, right? Well, anyways I don't judge him on his technique but on what he plays and to me it wasn't good. I guess when we say someone is a star--well that really means that they are well-loved by the people, so in that case you are right that Clapton and Montoya were certainly stars. But you probably also meant that they measure up to the best blues and flamenco players of their era--and in that I disagree very strongly. I don't hear soul when I hear Clapton play, it sounds to me like an American trying to sing cante jondo. And Montoya simply shouldn't be compared to Sabicas who also gave solo concerts but a bit more respectably I think. When we start talking about stars and popularity and credibility we are talking apples and oranges, I think!

As far as the comments about Clapton and Guy, they were from 20 years ago. Remember that Guy and Muddy Waters and Howling Wolf all got "theirs" because of the British. They got their second careers only because of the Rolling Stones and Clapton. Which is similiar to Paco selling records because of Ottmar. Sort of... :)



Mark2 -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 1 2004 22:25:08)

Just curious. Do you like SRV? He does nothing for me. All Albert King and Hendrix licks, even Jimi's image for god's sake. And when I write"star" I'm not talking just about popularity, but ability. And I still say Carlos Montoya was a flamenco star in his day and Clapton was a blues star in the sixties. I think they measured up to the best players of their era-in what they were doing. Since Buddy Guy, etc. were unknowns then, you can't know what they sounded like. BB. Freddy, and Albert King were around, and you could make a case that they were all better guitarists than Clapton, but that's personal preference. Muddy Waters and Clapton are apples and oranges-I don't see how they can be compared. Carlos had no peers-he was the only one out there. Sabas was later. I don't think you can compare CM to Nino Ricardo, or others back in Espana, because they were not performing for thousands of Americans in theatres. If Carlos stayed back in Spain in quadros where he started, he likely would never have played the way you hear him on recordings. I don't care much for what he played on recordings either, but that doesn't change what he accomplished.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 4:17:14)

Mark,
since you already said it, I have no problem in sharing that I don't like SRV at all either! :)

He can play, he has a lot of ideas... he can go on forever...he has very...pained facial expressions. No, he doesn't do it for me either, not at all.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 9:01:41)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Mark,
since you already said it, I have no problem in sharing that I don't like SRV at all either! :)


Well yah boo sucks to both of you 'cos I think he's great. [:D]
SRV sounds like Hendrix if he had taken some lessons and tuned his guitar...[;)]
My favourite blues player, by far. The Paco De Lucia of the blues world.

Hey Mike, I don't hear you complaining about Paco's pained expressions. [:D]

Jon



Guest -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 13:20:20)

Weelll!

If we are talking about blues, who plays it like Jimi Hendrix anyway??? Jimi copped off Buddy, but played it his way. Clapton copped off Freddie and Albert and did what he could. I played support on stage once with Cream and thought he was pretty good, if not up to the standard of Ginger Baker or Jack Bruce. Then Bruce confesses that he learned all his bass lines from Bach[:D]. After all an artista is an artista and the word better should not apply. When I am not listening to cante, I usually listen to Albert, just because I like his style.

Sean



Mark2 -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 16:52:13)

You can't be serious Jon[:D] SRV better than Jimi??!!! Sacrilege! There is no SRV without Jimi. In fact everything SRV ever played could fit in the small side pocket of the overcoat that Hendrix weaved from threads of blues , pop, soul, and his own huge imagination. Band of Gypsies live at the fillmore-the best live electric rock guitar playing ever recorded! The guy plays two melodies at once-using feedback, while he sings! Invented the sound and attitude of (good) heavy metal guitar simply by ending "changes" with those huge power chords. Played an epic solo on Machine Gun-in fact all the solos on that record are great. Out of tune? Yes, there are bootleg recordings of him playing out of tune-stuff he never would have released, but are out there because of the unrelenting public thirst for his playing and the greed of his business "partners" Had a lot to do also with his take no prisoners completely original use of the wammy bar, before floyd rose, etc. He was a giant the likes of Coltrane and Parker. And he also wrote hit songs! Whew! did I say I was a Hendrix fan? [;)]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 17:22:04)

Mark, Jon's from England, remember :) Don't they call the blues "skiffle" or something like that on the other side of the pond?



Jamey -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 18:24:52)

I dunno, blues to me is more of the ilk of Elmor James, John Lee Hooker (to name more recognized names)..... unplugged, grizzled, smoke filled and scratchy vinyl single track recording.

The electric guitar variety always seemed to be missing something for me. I've never thought of Hendrix as a blues guitarist (that's not to say that he couldn't play the style - because really, what couldn't he play???) and Clapton as a blues player when compared to Elmor James is as blues as Ottomar Liebert is Flamenco. It doesn't matter how much of a fan you are of him (Clapton), there's a difference between being and emulating. I think many of us here are aware of that in ourselves with respect to flamenco as well. You have to live it to be it (regardless of how accomplished at playing we become). That said, I'm content with learning and participating on whatever level I can, simply because I love it and find satisfaction in it. If you didn't grow up in it, live it, breath it and be immersed in it to the point of it becoming part of your essence, you aren't it. That doesn't mean you can't play great music though, far from it.

TAG!!!! YER IT!!!!
(* runs away giggling *)



Jon Boyes -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 19:28:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
Mark, Jon's from England, remember :) Don't they call the blues "skiffle" or something like that on the other side of the pond?


lol! Oy you, don't be cheeky. At least we elect leaders with IQs that go into three figures [:D]

Jon

...err, occasionally...


[NB - posted 8.28pm GMT 2/11/04]



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 20:26:15)

With any luck, the non-guitar playing one will be playing the blues... :)



Mark2 -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 2 2004 21:22:58)

Jamey,
I respect your and the other guy's opinions about what you think is blues, or who is the blues, but you have to admit that when you compare Clapton to Ottmar, you are leaving out the fact that Clapton studied and learned the blues as opposed to Ottmar y flamenco. It's really not a fair comparison. If you want to compare Clapton to David Serva-fine with me. But David Serva from America performs and records with professional Spanish singers just as Clapton performs and records with blues legends. In fact , David works in Spain more than many native Spanish guitarists, so if you want to say he's not flamenco, and Clapton is not blues, I guess you can, but I'm on the other side of the fence in both cases. I don't think either can be considered the definitive artist in their fields, but both to me are excellent representitives of professionals, worthy of respect as a flamenco or bluesman.



Jon Boyes -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 3 2004 9:41:28)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mark2
You can't be serious Jon[:D] SRV better than Jimi??!!! Sacrilege!

<snip>

OK Mark, so besides practically inventing modern rock guitar; fusing jazz, blues, soul and pop, coming up with landmark rock albums, influencing a a whole generation of guitarists, developing the pyrotechnic stage show par excellence, playing the guitar with his teeth, developing an innovative approach to whammy bar technique...
what has Hendrix ever done for guitar, eh?

[;)]

Jon



Mark2 -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 3 2004 17:16:44)

quote:

OK Mark, so besides practically inventing modern rock guitar; fusing jazz, blues, soul and pop, coming up with landmark rock albums, influencing a a whole generation of guitarists, developing the pyrotechnic stage show par excellence, playing the guitar with his teeth, developing an innovative approach to whammy bar technique...
what has Hendrix ever done for guitar, eh?


Sold a lot of strats and marshalls! Big thanks to the Brits for giving him a shot!



Kate -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 4 2004 11:32:09)

OK got to jump in and tell this Hendrix/Clapton story of Harold's. Many years ago, back in 1964, way before my time of hanging out in bars and clubs, Harold was at London's Speakeasy. Hendrix was playing that night and Stigwood , Clapton's manager, had not only got him down there to watch but also arranged for Clapton to jam with him. Once on stage Clapton stood there staring at Hendrix in total bewilderment and could hardly play a note, he scrambled off stage at the first opportunity hissing to his manager and was heard saying "Don't EVER do that to me again".

Kate



TANúñez -> RE: Listen to this (Nov. 4 2004 14:49:05)

Here' my 2 euros since Blues was my love for many years.

Clapton is the blues. His roots are blues and he got most of his stuff from Robert Johnson. Before anything else, he is a bluesman first.

Hendrix is probably my favorite and was way a head of his time.

There is no one like SRV. He was in a class by himself.
]\m ,
SRV loved hendrix and continued where Hendrix left off. Was he better than Hendrix?I believe his is/was. There's no telling what Hendrix would be like now if he were still alive though.

IMO, blues and flamenco are the only styles with true feeling. They make you happy or they can make you cry. They're also very similar in their roots.

Don't even get me started on acoustic blues.

This thread has given me an idea. Can you say............foro azul? [:)]



Page: <<   <   1 [2]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET