Aire...What does it mean? (Full Version)

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Arturo -> Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 20 2010 22:06:22)

Please allow a noob what might be a silly question. I’m trying to get my mind around the term aire. It came up in my Spanish II class tonight. The teacher says it means air or windy.

I asked if there was another meaning as I have learned from this forum and other sources that aire along with compas is fundamental to flamenco music.

I have read and heard that without an understanding of compas and aire a player would be imitating flamenco but never have the real feeling of it. That would be bad, right?

My feeling is that aire has something to do with feeling or passion. Could it be as simple as that, and how does one express his aire in his playing?

Is this definition of aire known outside flamenco circles?


Gracias, -Arturo



CuerdasDulces -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 20 2010 22:32:26)

This might help you
http://www3.telus.net/OscarNieto/glossary.pdf

I think a better word for "feeling" is "Soniquete" instead of Aire.



NormanKliman -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 0:11:32)

Not an easy one to translate, although the word "air" is also used in English to mean general character or appearance, and can even be applied to music, although in that case it just means a melody.

In flamenco, it refers to the feeling caused by the little details that imply rhythm. In my opinion, this usually has to do with the difference between "straight" eighth-notes (like a marching band) and "triplet" eighth-notes (swing). That'd be a question of breaking things down to a common denominator of twos or threes. But it could also refer to the mood created by melody and harmony, so the word is used in different ways.

Just imagine two players doing the same bulerías, for example, but with very different results. One might sound loose and breezy, with lots of space for extra notes that aren't being played. The other might sound tight and heavy, with every note crammed into the compás and no extra space.

About aire being important, that'd be another way to use the word. What I said about sounding "loose" or "tight" is all a matter of personal preference, so it's not like one is better than the other. But if somebody plays without any nuances, repeating the same patterns over and over, it could be said that he doesn't have aire. In that sense, imagine a hot stuffy room and opening a window to let in some fresh "aire." Gotta keep it playful.



veet -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 8:04:03)

Aire.
Picture the light at dusk, the golden hour. You're on a cobblestone street in a white village, the street is lined with jacarandas in full fragrant bloom strewing purple petals like a light snowfall all over the pavement.

Take a deep breath. How does that feel?

Ole



at_leo_87 -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 9:53:46)

aire can be used to mean just air, i think. such as manos al aire.

in flamenco terms, i've heard dancers use it to mean something close to "attitude."
like "how" you do something, with feeling or not, not necessarily "what" you do.



XXX -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 10:08:02)

From what i have read on the foro, it can mean a general feeling, but often it refers to a harmonic situation, whereas soniquete strongly refers to the (different ways of) rhythm. For example when you play bulerias por taranta or por medio, the two performances can have the same soniquete, but different aire. Also the accompaniment will sound different in different keys because all the voicings change. It pretty much gives a different feeling for everybody involved. I think that is the closes you can get to define "aire".



Arash -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 10:16:50)

aire is something like overall feel , vibe , etc.



Grisha -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 10:25:02)

To me "aire" probably means an authentic sentiment communicated in a natural way. It has something to do with the philosophy of Gypsies and flamenco, and can have many manifestations. For example, it's that small dose of pain in every note... the restraint... the finality of rasgueados... the crying quality...



Ron.M -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 10:46:02)

quote:

For example, it's that small dose of pain in every note...


I agree Grisha,

As Paco Peña said "Rhythmic excitement and technical excellence as each artist tries to push each other to the edge...

But always with that 'germ of sorrow' that haunts all serious Flamenco..."

cheers,

Ron



Grisha -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 10:51:52)

Yes, I can also add pride to the list...



Ron.M -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 11:38:19)

quote:

I can also add pride to the list...


I gotta admit folks, but "pride" is something I've never really understood. [:-]

It actually irritates me when I hear it!

I mean, you hear all these sayings like...

"You should be proud of your looks..."
"You should be proud of what you have achieved.."
"You should be proud of your religion...."
"You should be proud of your children...."

Don't they just mean "happy"?

I mean, "proud" just means to be "puffed up" or "inflated".

I've always thought that why should anyone ever be "proud" of anything??

Don't they just mean "happy" or "glad"?

This is a useless word and unhealthy way of thinking IMO, I really dislike it and have never used it.

I mean, through life I've achieved a lot of things that I wasn't sure I could, but I'm certainly not "proud" of them....maybe mildly happy..

(Uh..oh....grumpy mood coming on again... [:D])

(Actually the back roof of my house blew off in a storm last week and now the insurance company don't want to pay for it...

so I guess that's a good enough reason as any...[:D])

Ah well..

cheers,

Ron (Proud to have house insurance...[:D])



at_leo_87 -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 12:15:59)

yeah i don't get the pride thing either. nice point, ron.

but i have a feeling grisha is talking about a different kind of pride.



Grisha -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 12:19:43)

I think I am lost in translation here...



Doitsujin -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 12:34:20)

quote:

Not an easy one to translate, although the word "air" is also used in English to mean general character or appearance, and can even be applied to music, although in that case it just means a melody.


Well,... that counts for so many things. If one say thats ****... he dont really mean literally the poop of a bull.

Aire = to play, sing, dance with feeling

its that simple.



Arash -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 12:42:09)

pride is ok and good and can be constructive, as long as it has to do with something you have achieved and gained yourself and not something which is just there by pure luck or by accident.

for instance : nation. there is no logic and no reason to be proud of any nationality.
because you were just born somewhere by pure accident. could have been somewhere else too.

but, let say, you learn how to build a guitar, work, build your first guitar, it sounds good.
you are proud of it. good. hapiness is a bit different emotion than pride imo.
in this example for instance, you are both, happy and proud.

but sometimes you are just happy and not proud.

btw, Ron, i think you were and are sometimes proud too, but you don't know it and maybe don't realize it.
and sorry about the problems with the house, hope it will be solved somehow.



Estevan -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 12:58:01)

quote:

I gotta admit folks, but "pride" is something I've never really understood

But if you met any gitanos during your time in Spain then you would have come across the kind of pride that I believe Grisha is referring to, and I don't think it's the one that you're ranting about.



Chiste de Gales -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 13:30:26)

I've always thought of it as meaning "atmosphere" or to create a mood that is moving.

If I can get the dance instructor to smile and say "ále" when I play for her class, I think I'm getting the job done with Aire.



n85ae -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 14:00:51)

Pride is ONLY bad if you rub it in somebody else's face. If you are proud, and
humble, there's nothing wrong with that at all.

Jeff



Grisha -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 14:13:00)

I guess, there is a kind of pride that gives you strength in life. It's not being proud of something in particular, just a general feeling.



Estevan -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 14:20:03)

Ole Grisha.



Ricardo -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 14:24:54)

I go with 3 terms used, "vibe", and "atmosphere".....directly relates to the way the "feeling" of the music is percieved by those around you. You can play with feeling, but it is more the feeling outside of you, around you, based on what is played sung or danced. For example the "aire" of taranta could be coming from the key you play in...it sets the mood or vibe. Rhythm is separate, but it too can help to create the vibe. For example if you dont' have a good groove (soniquete) you won't create the required "aire" for whatever it is. Groove or soniquete is not just the compas, but the notes in between, the way you accent them or not, the dynamics, the subdivisions of the beat. There are different ways to do it.

With the right soniquete you can create the "aire" of jerez, for example.

Hope that helps.



CuerdasDulces -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 21 2010 14:58:41)



Here at 2:00 Diego del Morao is asked, what is "Soniquete"?
He answers, " it's the feeling, the swing"
Then he says that every family in Jerez(Morao,Jero,Parrilla) has their own feeling but they all sound like Jerez.



Estevan -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 22 2010 7:40:06)

quote:

Here at 2:00 Diego del Morao is asked, what is "Soniquete"?
He answers, " it's the feeling, the swing"

That's great. I love it when we agonize about what a word like "soniquete" really means, and then you get someone of that calibre who can't tell you in Spanish so he uses English words![:D]


(Then again, it's pretty hard to explain what "swing" means in English; if anyone ever asks me, maybe I'll just say "it's, you know... soniquete".)



veet -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 22 2010 8:09:48)

to finesse Morao's soniquete definition a bit -

to me, it's always been explained more as 'groove' than 'swing' and that makes sense - not every groove has a 'swing' feel



Estevan -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 22 2010 8:50:12)

quote:

to me, it's always been explained more as 'groove' than 'swing' and that makes sense - not every groove has a 'swing' feel

Maybe Spanish speakers use the English word 'swing' when they mean 'groove'.....(the hazards of loan words)



edguerin -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 22 2010 8:54:33)

quote:

"pride" is something I've never really understood


So you can be proud you're so humble![;)]



Arturo -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 22 2010 9:18:34)

Muchas gracias! That was interesting and fun.

I have a better understanding but I can't say I'm in the groove yet. Maybe I just need to live it long enough.

I must say that when I first came to this forum I never expected to find guitarist of such virtuosity.

The generosity you have expressed to a beginner like me will not be taken for granted.

-Arturo



Ron.M -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 22 2010 9:53:35)

quote:

That's great. I love it when we agonize about what a word like "soniquete" really means, and then you get someone of that calibre who can't tell you in Spanish so he uses English words!


HaHa!

So true....I love it!

It's like when the high-brow critics are interviewed on radio etc...
Whenever they come up against something etherial, they inevitibly come out with some foreign phrase or other... [:D]

Ed:

I dunno?
You're the Psychiatrist! [:D]
I'm not a church going person, but was brought up in the gloom of 1950's Scottish Presbyterianism, a particulary austere version of Christianity where hard work, frugality and service to others were regarded as good and any sense of self-importance or display of advantage or sense of being pleased with oneself as bad.

So I'm sure some of it must have rubbed off without me knowing...I dunno.

"pride" was basically a no-no....it was wrong thinking...
Basically the message was...
"Any ability that you have you can put down to your DNA, your upbringing, your teachers, other people, good fortune, luck and ultimately God."
Your part in it was only to get up off your backside and put in a bit of reasonable effort.[:D]

So there we are...

We can't even all agree on the true meaning of a straightforward English word such as "pride"....

and are arguing over the exact meaning of "aire"! [:D][:D]

cheers,

Ron



Estevan -> RE: Aire...What does it mean? (Jan. 22 2010 11:08:11)

quote:

We can't even all agree on the true meaning of a straightforward English word such as "pride"....

and are arguing over the exact meaning of "aire"!


Because the 'exact meaning' can't be put into words (and doesn't need to be), so we talk around it.

But like a lot of abstract or esoteric things, you can't have a definition, but the words can prepare you to recognize it; so you have clues and then some time you'll hear it and have an 'Aha!' (or an Ále!) moment and you'll know what it is.

Then if anyone asks you, you can go through all this again...[&:]



[But just between you and me, Ron, I'd say that ultimately it's a certain je ne sais quoi evoking that Weltschmerz - with its concomitant Innigkeit - which is the sine qua non of a good flamenco performance, what?]
[;)]



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