CuerdasDulces -> seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 20 2010 18:50:55)
Can someone explain how is this seguiriya por buleria? Is it just a fast seguiriya? It sounds more like bulerias the way tomatito plays but I can still hear the seguiriya accents...[&:]
P.S I hope this does not start another war [:D] Thanks
Andy Culpepper -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 20 2010 19:13:56)
He's singing seguiriyas to bulerias compas.
CuerdasDulces -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 20 2010 20:35:15)
Sorry...I still dont get it. [8D]
Andy Culpepper -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 21 2010 5:44:03)
quote:
Sorry...I still dont get it.
Oh OK, well someone will correct me if I'm wrong but basically you can kind of "buleria-ize" anything. A singer can do fandangos por bulerias, seguiriyas por bulerias, solea por bulerias, "Cielito Lindo" por bulerias, whatever. It's just a matter of adapting that cante or song to the compas of Bulerias. From the guitarist's perspective they are just playing Bulerias, maybe with different chord changes.
konradk -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 21 2010 6:35:14)
not an easy subject ... it depends on your ability to arrange stuff on the fly and spontaneously without being too rigidly caught up in palos ... only thing that really matters EVER ..is the compas
consider what Paco did in Sauras Carmen using on old chestnut from Bizet ....
Estevan -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 21 2010 12:15:53)
[edit Note: This is just general talk about the principle of singing something "por" something else. I don't know enough to talk about the particular example you gave, but luckily Ricardo does that below. ]
CuerdasDulces, maybe what you're missing is the distinction between the form of the verses (letra) and the musical forms that they are normally associated with.
Bulerías normally have a certain number of lines and syllables. Siguiríyas have a different pattern of lines and syllables. If you take the words of a siguiríya and sing them to a bulería accompaniment, then you have to adapt the rhythm of the words to the new accompaniment.
As Andy suggested, the guitarist just plays bulerías, while the singer has to make the song fit.
Here's a clear example that is also fun because you get to hear two great masters doing their thing:
[:D]
[p.s. I like wawalisko's comment under the second one... e verda', e super wena weón][:D]
CuerdasDulces -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 21 2010 12:51:37)
OK, I am starting to understand now. Thanks guys. And yes wawalisko has a good point. With Youtube it is so much easier to learn flamenco. My teacher (not sure if you know him, but you probably do) had only one VHS video of Paco when he started, and that was it. Now we have it so easy.
Ricardo -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 21 2010 14:11:45)
This "song" is not really cante por siguiriya. The confusion I think is that many singers sing THIS as the "macho" fast ending for the baile por siguiriya. They sing it over top of the compas of fast siguiriyas, crossed against the original way camaron does it here. I have played this for more than one singer that ended up accidentally crossing back into bulerias feel after repeating it (it fuks me up when that happens). More properly it is "bulerias' but typical for baile it would be "bulerias Por siguiryas" in that context.
The only thing I could be wrong about is if it is a trad ending for siguiriya done long before camaron recorded this as bulerias, but I am not aware of it. Maybe Norman can help.
Ricardo
NormanKliman -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 22 2010 0:17:31)
If I remember right, the label "bulería por seguiriya" appears on the original recording. I'd say that the letra, the cante, the toque and the underlying rhythm of all three make this a bulería.
The meter for siguiriyas letras is three or four lines of verse, with the line in the middle having eleven syllables and the rest having six. See my site for more information on this (http://www.canteytoque.es/sigclas.htm). The letras that Camarón sings aren't in siguiriyas meter. Here's a version from an Internet site (I've omitted the repetitions of "Dicen..."). It seems to match the original, although Camarón changes some of the words in this live performance:
live performance.
Dicen de mí que me amenaza el tiempo dicen de mí ay que si yo estoy vivo o muerto Y yo les digo les digo y digo mientras mi corazoncillo hierva yo voy a vencer a mi enemigo
Si me ves un día la mirada perdida y la locura en el semblante apiádate de mí no me maldigas porque las penas van prendidas ay al fleco del aire
Si me ves un día los ojos vencidos llorando al alba apiádate de mí no me maldigas que la desgracia va unida ay al cauce del agua
Si me ves un día, mirando al cielo suplicando a Dios apiádate de mí no me maldigas que los tormentos respiran ay por los rayos del sol
The cante (melody) is different from any of the siguiriyas that I know of, and I haven't heard anything about it being an obscure style of siguiriya. There are probably bits and pieces that are similar to certain styles of siguiriyas, but coincidences like that happen all the time, so that wouldn't make it a siguiriya.
The rhythm is different, too. Notice that there's no break between the accented beats six and eight. Using bulerías counting, it'd have to go 8-10-12-3-6 (break) to be siguiriyas. I hope you guys know what I mean with those numbers, because counting can confuse things, alignment of text in these forum messages is a problem, and right now I don't feel like drawing a diagram, scanning it and uploading it. Nearly everything that Camarón and Tomate do here is based on "1-2-3" and "7-8" if you know what I mean. In the live video, you can even see José patting those beats on his knee as he sings. In fact, there's only one small detail that fits the siguiriyas rhythm, and it's a falseta that Tomate plays at 3:30 in the live video (just before the last letra).
I think they called it "bulería por seguiriya" because it's a bit slower and stiffer than bulerías from Cádiz (closer to bulerías from Lebrija) and, at that tempo it's easier to feel the relationship between bulería and siguiriya. The letras might have something to do with it, too.
veet -> RE: seguiriya por bulería (Jan. 22 2010 8:31:04)
It sounds like the first 4 lines of the first letra, with the orchestra, could be a siguiriya, then it transitions at the end of the 5th line to pure bulerias.
The strings are playing the basic descending siguiriya line, or something close to it.
