Paco's Top Buleria? (Full Version)

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Jim Opfer -> Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 11:14:26)

Paco's the master of Buleria (right?). well I had cause recently to look through and listen to some of Paco's earlier recordings, you know the solo guitar ones from the 70's without all that later stuff going on in the background.

Made me wonder, which Buleria do I think is best?
Mmmmm...!

Any suggestions?



TANúñez -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 14:24:26)

Well IMO, Tomatito is the master of the Bulerias and I think Paco would agree. Paco ain't too shabby either though.

I really like Paco's older bulerias. Particularly, Jerezana from the 'La Fabulosa Guitarra de Paco de Lucia' album or Cepa Andaluza from 'Fuente y Caudal'.

From the newer stuff I like La Tumbona from 'Solo Quiero Caminar' and Gitanos Andaluces from 'Castro Marin'.

Then there's Almoraima. Ah the heck with it, I love them all!



Ron.M -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 14:30:47)

Hi Jim,
Don't know if Paco is the "master" of Bulerias. There are many great Bulerias out there....
I think "El Tempúl" from Fantasia Flamenca, was a milestone in Flamenco guitar though.
The composition is outstanding in elegance and the technique just breathtaking.
As Paco moved on and started adding more instruments, I started to find his stuff becoming a bit cluttered...but that's just my personal taste here.
But when Paco wants to play truly "solo" guitar, the guy is just stunning to watch and listen to.

cheers

Ron



duende -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 16:25:36)

I would say that Almoraima was the first true "composition"Buleria by Paco. The other earlier ones are realy great but more like"random" falsetas strung togheter if you know what i mean?.[:)] Almoraima has a clear intro-middle section-break-ending etc..
Do you know what im getting at here?[:D] Have any of you thought of it?

well...over and out[8D]

Henrik



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 17:51:31)

Almoraima is my favorite. And personally, I would rather hear Paco's bulerias than Tomatito, although I love Tomatito very much too. TOMatito.... I think we see what's going on here.



Ron.M -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 18:16:22)

quote:

Almoraima has a clear intro-middle section-break-ending etc..


And "El Tempúl" doesn't?

Listen to *anything* that went before Fantasia Flamenca, (including the young Paco's own stuff, which was heavily Sabicas/Escudero influenced) and surely anybody would have to say that it was a quantum leap album IMO.
Every track on it comes from an integrated vision of a new style of playing.... very different from anything that had gone before, which I feel, later resulted in Almoraima and other offshoots (and players) IMHO.
To me, that is the keystone album which generated "modern" flamenco guitar.

cheers

Ron



TANúñez -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 18:28:49)

quote:

TOMatito


That's funny Miguel [:)]

I was watching an interview with PdL and he made reference to Tomatito as being 'el rey de la buleria' or something like that. The guy is all gitano man. That's definitely arguable though with probably no winner.



duende -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 19:34:36)

RON. I was too lazy to write about El Tempul. But i´ve noticed it has more "arraged" parts. But i belive theres a before Almoraima Paco and an after almoraima Paco.
The more musicians you bring the more arranged the music has to be . If you listen to Almoraima ALL pieces are more arranged then they seem to have been before.
Didn´t mean to hurt your toes[:D] no pun intended

OLÉ!

Henrik



Ron.M -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 9 2004 20:28:26)

quote:

Didn´t mean to hurt your toes


No toes injured Henrik! [:D]
I just was wondering, since I know you are a studied musician and jazz guitarist, (and a fine flamenco player) so obviously I considered you're point of view seriously.
I can see what you are saying though.
Maybe it's a generational thing? [;)]

cheers

Ron



duende -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 10 2004 9:48:38)

[:)]



flamencoguru -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 10 2004 13:09:00)

You've got to listen to Niño Miguel's Bulerias. Paco was actually afraid of his style of playing, extremely flamenco.

As far as Paco goes, I would have to go with Almoraima and Punta del Faro. His performance of Impetu by Mario Escudero is incredible too.

Tomatito has an extremely mean Bulerias.

I'm sorry but I can't go without recognizing Moraito and Paco Cepero. Remember, the Bulerias is from Jerez and one doesn't get much more flamenco than these two gentlemen.

Un saludo, Errol



duende -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 10 2004 13:38:53)

I wonder what you think of Gerardo Nuñez "impetu" compared to Pacos?
I think Gerardos is more "clean" but lacks Pacos "gitano" atmosphere.
Im not saying the Gerardos not good juts that i prefer Pacos due to the feeling i find in there.
What do u think?[:)]

Henrik



duende -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 10 2004 13:39:40)

...what ever gitano atmosphere is?[:D]
Henrik



flamencoguru -> Gerardo's Impetu (Oct. 10 2004 17:25:00)

I be honest with you, when I heard Gerardo's version of Impetu I want to start crying. I think he lacked everything Impetu is supposed to be. The thing that really gets me is that he is completely capable of doing it. I don't know what happened.

When he gets to the alzapua part, IT DIED!!! I was let down. He's still a great guitarist but I don't like what he did with Impetu.

Paco did it justice. I prefer his version over Gerardo's anyday of the week.

Un saludo, Errol



duende -> RE: Gerardo's Impetu (Oct. 10 2004 19:37:35)

i AGREEEE 100%
Gerardo killed it[:(] And i don´t know what happened.

Henrik



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 11 2004 17:36:20)

This Nino Miguel is TOMatito's tio right? I heard that guy could play, that his technique was just as developed as Paco's, but that he went crazy and can now be seen on the streets of Huelva.



Mark2 -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 11 2004 18:33:41)

I have Nino Miguel's CD and he is/was a great player, very very similiar to Paco. I wondered if perhaps he developed at the same time as Paco, but Brook Zern, who is an expert on flamenco recordings amoung other things, informed me that Miguel's album was released later than Paco, which meant that Nino could have copped his whole gig from Paco. Nino's stuff is so similar that he had to have basically rewritten much of Paco's early material, however, there are other things, such as Nino's sevillanas, some of his bulerias, some of his solea, that are totaly original and truly great. His technique is not as strong as Paco's, IMO, and I don't see how Paco could ever have been "afraid", except for the fact that Nino is gipsy, which in certain cirlces elevated him above Paco as a flamenco.



flamencoguru -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 11 2004 22:09:37)

Hello,

Well I can tell you that Paco is infact the one who got Niño Miguel a record deal with Philips. About Paco "being afraid".... I think that is a statement Paco used to say that Niño Miguel could give him run for his money. Yes, that is true, Niño Miguel´s two and only original recordings came out after Paco´s recordings. Niño Miguel released them in 1975 and 1976.

I think all players A.P. (After Paco) have drank from that fountain. But I still argue that Niño Miguel had his own unique and original style. One cannot deny that it wasn´t flamenco. About him rewriting Pacos´stuff....... I would have to disagree........Some influence.....perhaps.

I don´t think his technique was up to Paco´s (although his did have a mean rasgueado and alzapúa) but I would definitely say that he had as much Duende as any one person could have in a life time.

Always nice chatting with you guys.

Un saludo, Errol

P.S. This is one CD that is out thanks to Philips and it´s called, " Grandes Guitarras Del Flamenco Niño Miguel". It is a release (1994) of most of the tracks on both of his original recordings. It was extremely difficult ( I don´t know if it´s out of print) to find but I found it at the following link. It´s worth buying. There is also a book of transcriptions that Alain Faucher has put out. If you buy direct from Alain Faucher, he can provide you a tape of the records for a fee. The links are found below.

http://www.deflamenco.com/tiendaflamenco/ver.jsp?cod=1088

http://www.deflamenco.com/tiendaflamenco/ver.jsp?cod=1640

http://www.affedis.com/musicbooks2.html



Escribano -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 13 2004 12:30:25)

Tomatito's Tangos in "Cameron, Paris 1986-87" is also awesome. In fact, he is probably my favourite guitarist at the moment. Sorry Paco [:D]



Jamey -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 13 2004 15:48:13)

It's that old hollow-dry sounding Faustino Conde that he's playing on that Paris 1987 album that really gets me into his sound. Just the coolest sounding guitar. A friend of mine has one of the same vintage (approximately). It just grabs you. Tomatito has this great swing to his playing that he injects everywhere and the tone he gets from that guitar is just right for his style. I like Paco and appreciate the magnitude of his skill and contributions, but he's not my favorite to listen to. The kinds of sounds like the Carmona's (Habichuelas), Moraos and Parillas create appeal to me more. Tomatito's sound is sometimes similar to PdL's (obviously) but he has this twist he puts on it that seems more.......??? (not sure what word I'm looking for, "Gitano" perhaps? It's hard to pinpoint). I'm not making any sense, I'll stop now. [&:]



Jim Opfer -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 13 2004 16:24:17)

quote:

Tomatito's Tangos in "Cameron, Paris 1986-87" is also awesome. In fact, he is probably my favourite guitarist at the moment. Sorry Paco


Yes Simon, super dupper CD. Tomatito's alzapua is like a machine gun (not that I've heard a real one live, so to speak but 'ye ken wit a' mean?) Ras are absolutely thunderous.
Great album. Great shout.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 13 2004 16:32:11)

I think Paco's tone is all about clarity. His attack, precision, and strength make for a percussive or machine-like quality, almost like a snare drum instead of a guitar. In my opinion his technique is transcendental in that it really stands alone in these matters, head and shoulders above everyone else. That doesn't mean that his tone is the most pleasing in its intrinsic qualities. I too, like Pepe Habichuela's tone, so earthy, so human. But Paco is like a force of nature. When you slow down his scales, even the real fast ones sound clean at 1/4 the speed. That's amazing.



Mark2 -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 13 2004 16:49:16)

quote:

I think all players A.P. (After Paco) have drank from that fountain. But I still argue that Niño Miguel had his own unique and original style. One cannot deny that it wasn´t flamenco. About him rewriting Pacos´stuff....... I would have to disagree........Some influence.....perhaps.


I have the Cd you refer to and some of the cuts-one buleria in particular, one of the rumbas, the fandango, are direct re writes of Paco. What separates him from other Paco imitators of the day was that Nino could actually play at that level, or very very close to it-I'm not sure how many guitarists could do that in 1975. Also, as I said, he has some really good original stuff. Agree his playing is very flamenco. One thing on the Cd is very weak, and that is his improvising on one of the rumbas. I do agree that he has his own style, and was one of the great players in the 70's.



Escribano -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 13 2004 18:13:03)

quote:

Yes Simon, super dupper CD

I'm streaming it tonight as a little treat for the forum as well as some older Cameron CDs with PDL. See my "Streaming Cameron Tonight" post at http://www.foroflamenco.com/m.asp?m=12423&appid=&mpage=1&p=&key=&tmode=&smode=



El Craic -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 14 2004 10:00:41)

And the cause of Jim's research was my 30th birthday bah humbug. [:o] [:(]

Thanks for the compilation CD jim it was my favourite present apart from the free swimming lesson ...

I have an awful lot of trouble picking out favourite's or bests as everything has strengths or is saying something, depending on its context (and depending on how little I know about that!!) and I think I hope I have broad tastes. Paco is gradually becoming fascinating to me, it has taken a while to begin to understand some of him and now I'm going to get stuck in...although I don't have much time...i am 30 after all [&:][:(]



Escribano -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 14 2004 15:21:05)

Happy Birthday for last Sunday[:D]



Jamey -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 14 2004 15:36:30)

quote:

I think Paco's tone is all about clarity. His attack, precision, and strength make for a percussive or machine-like quality, almost like a snare drum instead of a guitar. In my opinion his technique is transcendental in that it really stands alone in these matters, head and shoulders above everyone else. That doesn't mean that his tone is the most pleasing in its intrinsic qualities. I too, like Pepe Habichuela's tone, so earthy, so human. But Paco is like a force of nature. When you slow down his scales, even the real fast ones sound clean at 1/4 the speed. That's amazing.


Yeah I realize that. As I said, I appreciate his ability and the magnitude of his contributions. Nobody can even begin to dispute PdL's position as simply better/more accomplished than everybody else. Some of the techniques and arrangements he's done over the years are so evolved and complicated that VERY few players can even approach the pieces. Say nothing of his ability to create all of this complication yet be unfailingly rooted in compas. The only time PdL sounds sloppy or slurred is when he DECIDES to be intentionally for effect. That's simply incredible. PdL is the measure by which all others are compared.

All that said, I still like to listen to other players as a musical preference.



duende -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 14 2004 17:46:13)

30´S NOT AN AGE[;)]

OLÉ FOR YOU!![sm=kiss.gif][sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]



Jim Opfer -> RE: Paco's Top Buleria? (Oct. 14 2004 18:47:54)

quote:

Thanks for the compilation CD jim it was my favourite present apart from the free swimming lesson ...


Ah....! Emma, that swimming lesson...



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