flamencology (Full Version)

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andalusian -> flamencology (Oct. 7 2004 19:45:01)

I know that in Univesity of Granada is possible to learn a subject called flamencology. Does somebody know what I would have to do to get in there?



Escribano -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 7 2004 20:04:37)

quote:

Does somebody know what I would have to do to get in there?


Practise[:D] Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I would be interested myself. I imagine you would require fluent Spanish, written and spoken and then call them. Kate may be able to advise.



Guest -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 7 2004 20:35:28)

Flamencology is the study of a living artform by academics who have little connection to it. They end up with an encycopedic knowledge of dates, history etc and, more often than not, cannot play palmas. (If you don´t believe me, ask Estela). Flamencologos are usually despised by flamencos: Camaron referred to them as flamencolicos.

Escribano, I think that your approach of hanging out in late night bars with singers and guitarists is much more legitimate, though possibly more alcoholico que flamencolico[:)]

Sean



Miguel de Maria -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 7 2004 20:55:32)

I was in Sevilla for a month and took a tiny course called introduction to flamenco. They are concerned with documentation, not execution... You will not learn how to sing or play from listening to them. To my mind it is, what are you interested in? Are you interested in getting it into your bones, to really experience a vibrant living thing? Then talk to Sean. Are you interested in knowing, in a book sense, how these things work together, when they started, where they started, how certain personages interacted with things? Then go to one of these flamencologists. If you ask five different flamencos what is Solea por Bulerias, you will get five different answers, and they will each contradict each other, and often themselves, many times. Some people will tell you that flamenco is of, by, and for gypsies, others will contradict that notion. You are dealing with very proud, sometimes vain, and very passionate people who take their art very seriously. This goes for flamencos and flamencologists... :) But this is just my experience, you'l have to find out for yourself.



bailoro2000 -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 8 2004 7:50:42)

Having said the same thing enough times to be boring: The best singers, dancers and
guitar players in flamenco always come from whichever pueblo, town or city you happen to be in at the time of discussion. And ever more it shall be so (-:

Having had my first encounter with flamenco at live performances, I used to hold a down against academics. Later I realised the value of historians and academics who furnish facts that go a long way to helping with an understanding of the art that born
flamenco's don't need or want. But we aren't flamencos, so we need these facts to help us along. I believe there's room for both in the world. There is no substitute for the real thing, but how many of us are lucky enough to live amongst it?

Don Pohren is a flamencologist, but from living amongst the art for his experiences, not getting it from any college. I truly believe you need a vast experience of the live art before entertaining any notions of catalogueing it in print.

Just my opinion.

Jim.



Kate -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 8 2004 10:22:40)

If you go to the University website you will probably get all the info you need, if not at least you'll get their contact details so you can write or call them. Here's the link

http://www.ugr.es/university.htm

Let us know what you find out and I'll ask around as well.

Saludos

kate



Escribano -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 8 2004 13:48:37)

quote:

Escribano, I think that your approach of hanging out in late night bars with singers and guitarists is much more legitimate, though possibly more alcoholico que flamencolico


Cheaper than college, though! I agree but it's not for everyone. Long hours and a late start.



Kate -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 9 2004 11:41:51)

Here's another link that is useful if you speak Spanish, pretty essential if you are considering studying at the University.

http://www.terra.es/personal3/manitasplata/asociaci.htm

Juan Pinilla the secretary and contact is a young singer who came in second at la union this years for his cante de mineras. He is also the flamenco critic for Granada Hoy and a really nice guy with his finger on the flamenco pulse in Granada. He should be able to answer any questions you may have or point you in the right direction. His contact mail is at eth bottom of the web page.

Hope this helps

kate



Guest -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 9 2004 15:36:59)

Miguel

You are quite right. Though, personally, I cannot tolerate flamencólogos who know all the facts but don´t know the difference between good and bad cante. I know one who does not know the difference between seguiriyas and soleá.

The other day I was having a cerveza with Nani de Cadiz and Momi de Cadiz. Momi makes his living by touring, Japón, Alemania, Italia etc.

I was of the opinion that the first verse of Malagueñas del Mellizo was a Granaína and first used by Aurelio, but people have begun to talk about the Malagueña Chica or the Prefácio, so I asked Momi. He confirmed that there is no first verse: it is simply a Granaina, accompanied in tonos de Malagueñas. Then he sang it to demonstrate. We went on to discuss the concept of Malagueña Doble, which is often a synonym for the original Malagueñas del Mellizo.

Momi said that depending on his faculties, a cantaor could sing the Malagueñas in its original form or choose to adorn the AYs in a more valiente manner. Then he sang both to demonstrate the difference. So the Malagueña Doble is simply the Malagueña del Mellizo, sung more valiente.

We went on to discuss the most difficult cante, which by common agreement is the soleá apolá. He pointed out that the original needs mucho voz and sang it to demonstrate. Then he said a cantaor who could not make the tones could find an intermediate camino, while still singing soleá apolá. Again he sang this version to demonstrate it.

These things interest me much more than dates. They are what you need to know if you want to accompany. When I need to know something, I ask a cantaor (Though not just any cantaor) and am much more confident in his opinion.

I know from experience that it is hard for an aficionado living abroad to be anything more than a flamencólogo. But then, not everyone who lives in Andalucía is a flamenco or even an aficionado.

Suerte

Sean



Miguel de Maria -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 9 2004 17:41:23)

Sean,
from what I understand, every Spaniard is an expert on flamenco when he is talking to a foreigner. Like the Andalucians who saw Sabicas in a bar and said, he's no flamenco, he's from the North! When I was in Sevilla, my teacher was Eduardo Rebollar... he loves to jam so much! When he accompanies, he has so much fun and communicates it. He gets into it! It's amazing how hard accompanying the cante is, every guitarist I met had a lot of respect for the work it takes.



Fergusito -> RE: flamencology (Oct. 12 2004 15:37:57)

I asked Emillio Maya what he thought of Flamencologos and he said he really didn't understand the point of it flamenco is for playing is you can play thats the true wasy to understand it
fergs



Carlos Bedoya -> RE: flamencology (Feb. 25 2005 1:30:44)

quote:

Flamencology is the study of a living artform by academics who have little connection to it...


In every artistic movement there are outside observers at different levels. They can be very helpful in promoting an art to people who might not otherwise have taken an interest. Some have a genuine love for that art that goes beyond the "academic". I couldn't be as severe in making or agreeing with blanket statements about them even if Camaron or Emilio Maya were the ones who made those statements.



Kate -> RE: flamencology (Mar. 1 2005 17:31:55)

The other day I bumped into Jose Heredía Maya ( at the dentists of all places) who teaches flamencology at the University of Granada. As you can tell from his name he comes from two well known Gypsy flamenco families, and is also a poet, a flamenco singer, a playwright and has 2 PHDs. When I was at the University taking his course about Lorca he brought in some flamenco singers and palmeros to sing the dialogue in order to understand the rhythm in Lorca's 'Bodas de Sangre' which was not only highly entertaining but also incredibly helpful in understanding how the play should be performed.

Kate



Guest -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 15 2005 8:51:34)

Have you ever read the texts of, say, Félix Grande? Isn´t he a flamencologist too? I think a good flamencologist must have sincere love for his subject, like mr. Grande. Some anthropologists say that a researcher must spend at least a year among the people she is investigating. I guess everyone who writes academic texts on some music culture has become a part of that culture and can play or sing well the music. There is a difference taking one course of a subject in university and dedicating your whole courier to a subject. If you don´t have a sincere interest in the subject you don´t build your academic life on it. That´s only my opinion.

Toni



el español -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 17 2005 22:47:37)

hi, am from Spain am my name is Iván. I also have heard talkin about that flamencology subject, but what I have heard is that it is not gonna be at Granada, but in Jerez de la Frontera (the village where flamenco was born).



Escribano -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 17 2005 23:18:30)

quote:

but what I have heard is that it is not gonna be at Granada, but in Jerez de la Frontera (the village where flamenco was born).


Jerez is hardly a village anymore but flamenco seeps from the bars and cars, the cafes and houses. It is muy flamenco. It has over 20 penas. No contest.



Toni -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 20 2005 7:54:04)

I think there are some courses in Granada also under the discipline of ethnomusicology. I have heard also about that catedra de flamencologia in Jerez but I don´t know anything about it. In the University of Sevilla there´s only one course and it´s under the discipline of music education or something like that. I suppose it´s only an introductory course to those who don´t know anything about flamenco. I think the best way to learn flamenco is to play/sing/dance it.

By the way, in my last post I ment career, not courier.[:)]

Toni



Guest -> RE: flamencology (Nov. 16 2005 18:06:51)

I took the course at Granada University in 2001-2002.. it´s called "Flamenco y músicas del Mediterráneo"... here is the teachers web-site: http://www.ugr.es/~histarte/musica/profesores/berlangama.htm

I belive there is also another on "Ethnomusicology"..

I really liked the course... compared to most classes in Spain, you actually take part in what´s going on and the teachers is very good. The couse involves the history of flamenco, its evolution, listening excercises and so on...

You have to speak spanish of course. However, grades showed that foreign exchange students actually did better than native students!! We were around 15 in the class, I think about half of us were foreigners..

Here´s my e-mail in case someone wants to know more... uffest@rocketmail.com



Escribano -> RE: flamencology (Nov. 16 2005 18:32:53)

Thanks for the info. How much were the fees?



Guest -> RE: flamencology (Dec. 14 2005 16:52:55)

Fees?? Hmmm...I was there on an exchange program, so I don´t even think I had to pay anything... I´m pretty sure the fees is pretty low.. maybe 25 dollars or so...



Guest -> RE: flamencology (Dec. 14 2005 17:04:34)

By the way Escribano... I checked out your block.. How funny: that guitar constructor you link to (Anders E.)... I know him. We are both Danish and he also took the course I mencioned!!! I´ll be sure to drop by his place next time I´m down there...



Escribano -> RE: flamencology (Dec. 14 2005 19:35:55)

quote:

that guitar constructor you link to (Anders E.)... I know him


Join this forum and talk direct to Anders, he is a frequent visitor here. I'll ask him about the course.



kudo -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 29 2012 16:20:29)

I know a person who took a flamencology course in cristeena heren foundation in sevilla and he made it sound like it was an important course, important things to know, but I personally dont believe that I should take this course because there is nothing in it that I can apply to practice! imean it will not help me to play better or teach me anything practical, right? any opinions?

at the end, it all comes down to actually playing, dancing and singing and each person knowing what they are doing and doing it passionately and as best as they can.
who cares about the detailed history of who,where and when and all that non-useful information and etc?? I mean I know some basic history of flamenco, the general idea kind of history, and thats enough!



estebanana -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 29 2012 16:47:49)

Exhale everyone, the 7 year old question has been answered. [:D]



Doitsujin -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 29 2012 18:14:17)

After you finished it and u r looking for a job it would be like that:

You: I would like to apply here because I have a degree in flamencology.
company or whoever: Go and **** yourself.

I told u.



Kevin -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 29 2012 18:28:06)

quote:

Exhale everyone, the 7 year old question has been answered.


Projecting your recent disappointments???

quote:

After you finished it and u r looking for a job it would be like that:

You: I would like to apply here because I have a degree in flamencology.
company or whoever: Go and **** yourself.

I told u.


You mean like guitar construction or the arts in general???[8D] And what exactly are you doing with flamenco?

If a fine arts degree has become useless (at least in America after the 2008 crisis), then not having a degree must be somewhat worse. Musicians have always eked out livings, and teaching is just one way of doing so.

Since when did hard work of any sort become a target for shame or mockery?



Doitsujin -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 29 2012 19:12:49)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kevin

You mean like guitar construction or the arts in general???[8D] And what exactly are you doing with flamenco?

If a fine arts degree has become useless (at least in America after the 2008 crisis), then not having a degree must be somewhat worse. Musicians have always eked out livings, and teaching is just one way of doing so.

Since when did hard work of any sort become a target for shame or mockery?


Im talking about flamencology and not about art. And studying flamencology is not hard work.



Kevin -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 29 2012 19:27:12)

quote:

Im talking about flamencology and not about art. And studying flamencology is not hard work.


If it's not hard work, you aren't doing it right. Anything worth doing is difficult.

I totally get the "practical" argument. Learn it through experience. That was my take early on as well. I even ridiculed flamencologists and anthropologists. Guess what? That is both immature and really shows a lack of understanding about how complex flamencology/anthropology/ethnomusicology are.



Doitsujin -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 29 2012 19:53:44)

quote:

Anything worth doing is difficult.


wrong



Ron.M -> RE: flamencology (Jun. 29 2012 19:55:25)

Everything is as deep and complex as you want to go with it.

We tend to judge study subjects on the immediate job prospects or financial returns IMO.

I'm sure plenty folk thought the young Pablo Picasso a waste of time when there were other, more serious (in their opinion) issues to be dealt with.

In fact, I would reckon that a lot of practical people doing practical jobs would have thought the early Crick and Watson to be utter lazy, academic wastrels doing nothing practical except looking down microscopes and stuff to satisfy their own curiosity and interest and not contributing anything at all useful to the world.

cheers,

Ron



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