RE: what is the name of this chord? (Full Version)

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orsonw -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 9:36:37)

More 'por medio' dissonance.

Sometimes I use this chord below, can be in various place like next to B flat or A.

What is this chord called?

1
2
1
0
4
X (or even 3 for extra darkness)



Ricardo -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 9:41:11)

quote:

ORIGINAL: orsonw

More 'por medio' dissonance.

Sometimes I use this chord below, can be in various place like next to B flat or A.

What is this chord called?

1
2
1
0
4
X


C#(b9) You are borrowing from the parallel major key (A phrygian->A major). Check out Diego del Morao playing for singers from jerez, and he jumps between C# phrygian and Amajor (Same scale), and in A you can easy modulate to A phrygian.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 16 2010 11:10:54)

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minordjango -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 11:39:16)

i think pepe just added the G# as its a gypsy thang to do , probably found it buy making a mistake (missing by a fret, sometimes cool to find chords that way by misplacing a finger.

chords cycle in E(basica modality), with mode of the harmonic minor, used often from groups like metallica, testament, to ygnwie malmsteen, always loved that sound.

any notes cool to play specially if ya can oull it off like the above mentioned guys



XXX -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 12:00:30)

Ricardo and romerito! A question.... I assume you familiarized yourself with scales like lydian, melodic minor, locrian, during your time with Jazz studies etc? Is there any flamenco pieces to study these scales? Coz i mostly hear major, minor and phrygian in flamenco...



Ricardo -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 12:02:14)

quote:

Pepe is not thinking in terms of melodic minor (I think).


I agree, neither he nor many other flamencos. They just play by ear and feel and "vibe".[;)] Anyway, asking "what is the name of this and why does it work" is the theory question being asked, and I am just giving a possible description and reason. In flamenco practice of course no need to anaylize it this way, you just play it.

My only point is, regardless what pepe is thinking or hearing, EFGAb(?)CD are the notes in the example. The one (?) could be Bb, and I have heard this done a lot in other similar examples, and the result is E superlocrian or F melodic minor. I am just saying it is an idea where the harmonic idea relates, and is used often. As I said before the E super locrian and E spanish phrygian Share ALL notes except the B or Bb. So it is a sort of harmonic trick on the ear, and the reasoning behind the exotic flavor (my term vibe) for these passages.

You say no "vibe" in the chicuelo, as if it is perfectly normally occuring harmony in phrygian, but even Todd was like "how could that work in context". My point is it DOES have an exotic vibe, even though it is hard to SEE why cuz nothing is out of the normal phrygian scale, and the reason is this melodic minor relation. Anyway, some other different notes would change the way I analyze it. For example a B natural, or D#.... but they were not present in those passages of pepe and others.

Another way to see these spots is the minor third modulation relationship. For example, in E phrygian, borrowing from G phrygian is done sometimes. The reason it works is the same as the Superlocrian reason....common enharmonic notes.

Hope that clears it a bit.



Ricardo -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 12:34:58)

quote:

Ricardo and romerito! A question.... I assume you familiarized yourself with scales like lydian, melodic minor, locrian, during your time with Jazz studies etc? Is there any flamenco pieces to study these scales? Coz i mostly hear major, minor and phrygian in flamenco...


Not really, flamencos don't think that way really. Everyonce in while there is a deliberate clever usage out of nowhere in a short falseta, but not really an "exercise" is scale study.

Examples:Monitño and end of la barrosa whole tone scale. Chicuelo's rumba used diminished scale (whole half symmetric). Nuñez Jucal uses D# super locrian in one little spot, he does the same falseta for Indio Gitano por medio.

Those are just isolated examples, where you should really just be learning the notes and keep compas. Later if you hear the name for the scale you just say "oh, I know that from chicuelo" etc etc.

If you are seriously interested, you should just get a jazz method cuz that is what it is all about....chord and scale relationships and usage. Flamenco is NOT about that, and analyzing it that way is totally retro active (meaning everything I have been writing above about superlocrian is totally pointless!).[:D]

Ricardo



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 16 2010 12:58:00)

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Arash -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 14:30:59)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HolyEvil

Hi there guys, anyone know what is the name of this chord?

0
1
1
0
1
1

or
x
1
1
0
1
1


cheers


you like such chords?

also try out this one

0
3
2
0
1
1

[;)]



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 16 2010 14:39:09)

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ToddK -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 15:02:46)

quote:

As for Todd, he is a great player but does not seem to be an aficionado (which contrary to popular belief - IS NOT a bad term...some great accompanists even implicitly or explicitly state that it is a necessity if you want to be a good accompanist). The more one listens the more one will hear these connections and not be freaked out about how it fits.


So, i must just not be that into flamenco?

Freaked out by how a chord fits?

Gee, thats not condescending or insulting at all.[8|] Its just a chord, you dont have to be a dick about it.

TK



NormanKliman -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 15:19:33)

quote:

...but does not seem to be an aficionado...


quote:

So, i must just not be that into flamenco?


Yeah, I was going to say, aficionado means someone who likes flamenco, listens to it, tries to understand it and knows a little about it. So where (and why?) do you draw the line?



Estevan -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 16 2010 15:51:08)

quote:


So, i must just not be that into flamenco?

Could've fooled me, man. [8|] Still, you learn something every day - that's the great thing about the foro.



Guest -> [Deleted] (Jan. 16 2010 20:11:14)

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minordjango -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 17 2010 1:47:00)

No rules no line all players a different thats why i like flamenco .

it cool knowing the names for chords if ur a teacher or a theory nut , or follow a course of study, not essential though.

toddk's upload of the bulerias from Zyrab album which is brilliant shows some interesting chordal harmony, defo el maestro de la guittara not just a fan !



Ricardo -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 18 2010 8:57:31)

Back to Romerito's point that all these examples derive from the phrygian scale, or rather the spanish phrygian mode which can incorporate both the minor and major third (In A, ABbCC#DEFG), i totally agree. My point all along was that is why these "exotic" sounding chords work in context, because of the shared notes between phrygian and other modes.

I was just pointing out that the exotic part of the sound comes from relationship to some other interesting modes. It need not be an argument, there are different ways to analyze this stuff, and of course this is just supposed to be fun and perhaps generate some creative ideas, not be a definative and final music theory view.

Here is a good example that is not properly nameable to me. Paco uses this por medio , but in many pieces to give an exotic sound. He will even move this chord chromatically, but I honestly can't name it. It seems to be a cluster of notes from the Spanish phrygian, and would be analyzed as a Dbmaj7#11, if not for that one "out" note, D natural, that is simply an incidental thing because of the barre chord shape. Even though it is just notes from A phrygian (A)(Bb)CC#D(E)FG, it has a very exotic sound in context. My guess is Paco stumbled on this chord when transposing some passage by a minor third UP from A phrygian, and used the moveable barre shape.

3
3
5
3
4
3

I guess I would call it Dbmaj7(b9)#11....which would throw off any jazz guy I think, who would not realize at first glance that A phrygian works, but maybe lydian b9 (which I have never heard of) would be the way to read that chord in a chart.
(Db-Ebb-F-G-Ab-Bb-C). Notice if we only make the A natural, we have spanish phrygian (missing E natural).

Fun stuff.

[;)]



NormanKliman -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jan. 18 2010 10:39:53)

I can't get too far into theory without getting dizzy, but I remember reading (think it was Guitar Player magazine in the 1990s) a jazz tip about stacking up fourths (in relation to each other, not in relation to the tonic) in order to create ambiguous chords ("safe" for accompanying a solo). Some of these modern chords (the main one that Kris posted) have a similar sound to my ears. May just be coincidence and/or confusion on my part.

I agree with Romerito that a lot of modern chords work in a flamenco "common sense" sort of way, but I also think that guitarists started studying advanced theory in the 1990s and that some of these modern chords come directly from that.

Would like to hear what you guys think about this.



andrew\\ -> RE: what is the name of this chord? (Jun. 25 2014 13:24:42)

Do you have a link for these videos or can you send me the files?

Cheers



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