Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Full Version)

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Mike_Kinny -> Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 2 2010 6:05:57)

What do you think?



Mike_Kinny -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 2 2010 11:53:39)

Ok I give it a shot.

Pros: Its cheap and dries hard clear and as colourless as it can get. It can be sanded with an orbit sander and it wont melt and stick to the sandpaper.

Cons: ?



estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 2 2010 11:57:21)

What kind if wood?

Egg white won't really fill pores effectively. It's really not meant to fill pores. The name of an egg white coating is called a 'glair'. What it will do is raise the grain of the soft wood and create a slightly oxidized looking dull lustre on the surface.

I've done it before and then sanded it off. It's good if you want to create an old time look really fast. But the egg white does not have enough body to fill pores and if you add pumice to it you will get the same grain raising effect and you may not get all the pumice cleared so it could end up looking white and chalky in the pores.

Egg white is for tempera painting. Super Glue is for pores, or if you have the patience to learn, pumice. Or you can get some pore filler from a hardware store. Just test it first.

And for Christ sake, mine and your guitar don't use an orbital sander on your guitar when you are preparing it for finishing. Geeze.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 0:07:01)

Still havent tried anything better than pumice. I´ve tried LMI porefiller (horrible) Epoxy( no good to coat your guitar with dead material) Superglue ( I hate its chemical feel and be carefull with your health) Nitro porefiller (worthless)

So even though pumice is not the easy way, I havent found a usefull substitute and I will stay with pumice.
I agree with estebanana, orbital sanders should not be used on guitars, you loose control way to easy.



aarongreen -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 6:04:55)

In terms of filler, the best I've found is pumice, although there are some very exciting developments in UV cured fillers going on. It involves a rather serious investment in a UV light and you need a spray booth as well but it is the only thing to come around that actually fills well and does it very, very quickly. It also is clear which is preferable to me. A friend of mine in town who is a well known steelstring builder is making the switch so I am eager to bring him a few guitars in the next batch for filling. If it works as well as he says, I suspect I'll be making the investment at some point in the next few years.

When it comes to pumice and french polish though, it helps not to think of the filling and finishing as two separate processes. I fill my guitars a few times with pumice and then start in on building up finish. However I keep the pumice handy the whole time. When I find a pore that isn't filled, rather than keep laying on the shellac only to sand it off, I do another go around with the pumice, very lightly though as to not get pumice deposits. It is also really handy for leveling the finish, again rather than sanding. I use it on the top as well. Things go by much quicker this way than they did before, with better results.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 6:41:56)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

And for Christ sake, mine and your guitar don't use an orbital sander on your guitar when you are preparing it for finishing. Geeze.


This list is amazing, I keep finding things I've been doing wrong for the last 40 years.



Mike_Kinny -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 8:42:58)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

And for Christ sake, mine and your guitar don't use an orbital sander on your guitar when you are preparing it for finishing. Geeze.


This list is amazing, I keep finding things I've been doing wrong for the last 40 years.


Not only this list but all lists are amazing. I take what others say with a pinch of salt no matter how certain they sound.

Most of the time they don't have first hand experience about that matter. Other times their opinion is based on a single-try-and-failure experience [:D]

Now Anders says about epoxy that it is not good to coat your guitar with dead material [&:] I can't see how pumice is more alive than epoxy. Incidentally I remember that once porefilling his guitar he got the proportions wrong and ended up with some gum-like material stuck to his guitar [:D]

Epoxy may or may not be a good solution (depending on the type of wood and the desired end result) but you need real facts to back up your opinion. Besides no solution is 100% good or bad. It's a matter of compromise and the desired end result. Different solutions may be used under different circumstances.

estebanana sounds very convinced about not using orbit sander in this case but that isn't so obvious to me. Maybe we are talking about different things? So estebanana care to elaborate?



estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 10:04:50)

I use an orbital sander on some woods before assembly. Ribs or top and back. For other woods I use a scraper.

If you've not done lot of instruments yet it may be worth while to learn to hand sand with blocks of various kinds.

As far as doing everything wrong for 30 years, well there are lots of ways of making guitars and we settle into things we would not necessarily want to teach a beginner. What's wrong with recommending an approach that says go to the hand tool first and then later to a power tool? By learning the process with hand tools the person will probably develop better sanding technique overall by being in touch with the material. Slowing down enough to stay aware of subtle thickness changes might prove beneficial for someone.

If I were teaching this I would make them build the first guitars almost all by hand and draw their own plans from direct study of a good guitar. So my thinking is geared towards less machine operations for a new builder. Since I've only been working on instruments since 1979, I'll bow to anyone's knowledge that has information I don't have yet.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 10:15:31)

The problem I see is that you were addressing Mike_Kinny who is a professional guitar maker.

Oh, and I was mistaken in my years of experience. It's actually closer to 50 years now. And sadly I'm still trying to learn how to build the perfect guitar.
quote:

ORIGINAL:

If you've not done lot of instruments yet it may be worth while to learn to hand sand with blocks of various kinds.




estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 10:32:12)

From the questions he asks it's difficult tell if he has experience with acoustic guitars and woods.

I'm impressed you have fifty years of building under your belt. You should post more about how you do things instead of being sarcastic that know it all junior builders are acting to big for their britches.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 14:59:05)

Actually Stephen I post pretty regularly. I remember you from the old Temple list. Don't take me too seriously, I'm just a sour tempered old fat guy who's living proof that stupid young people turn into stupid old people[:D].



HemeolaMan -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 22:56:27)

estebana, would you tell me more about the look of egg white?

the old time look you are talking about, would that be the sort of moderately flat look of old shellac?

im kinda interested in doing this just for fun. I'm making a '51 barbero "clone" (as best as an amateur can clone a master) and i think it might be a bit of fun to have an aged look to it to add some measure of distinction and experience to its overall appearance.

I plan to play the ever loving sh*t out of it so i figure a super hi gloss perfectly done finish is sort of ... counterintuitive =)



Mike_Kinny -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 23:37:12)

quote:

you were addressing Mike_Kinny who is a professional guitar maker.


Thanks for thinking that I'm a pro builder but I'm just an amateur.



Mike_Kinny -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 3 2010 23:58:15)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

I use an orbital sander on some woods before assembly. Ribs or top and back. For other woods I use a scraper.

If you've not done lot of instruments yet it may be worth while to learn to hand sand with blocks of various kinds.

As far as doing everything wrong for 30 years, well there are lots of ways of making guitars and we settle into things we would not necessarily want to teach a beginner. What's wrong with recommending an approach that says go to the hand tool first and then later to a power tool? By learning the process with hand tools the person will probably develop better sanding technique overall by being in touch with the material. Slowing down enough to stay aware of subtle thickness changes might prove beneficial for someone.

If I were teaching this I would make them build the first guitars almost all by hand and draw their own plans from direct study of a good guitar. So my thinking is geared towards less machine operations for a new builder. Since I've only been working on instruments since 1979, I'll bow to anyone's knowledge that has information I don't have yet.


So now you were trying to improve my sanding technique? [:D]

The good thing about Internet discussions that guarantees a level of anonymity is that you can evaluate other opinions, experiences, arguments, etc. based on their own merits, not based on who the poster is.

Imagine Robert Ruck comes here and says that the soundboard must be treated with pee and salt repeatedly for one year prior to use. Are you going to utilize that technique or are you going to ask him why?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 4 2010 1:25:19)

Sorry for the mistake about orbital sanders. I use a palm sander as well. Not very much, but I use it. I mixed Orbital sanders with Random orbital sanders. (I´m not a native English speaker!)

quote:

Now Anders says about epoxy that it is not good to coat your guitar with dead material I can't see how pumice is more alive than epoxy. Incidentally I remember that once porefilling his guitar he got the proportions wrong and ended up with some gum-like material stuck to his guitar


What are you talking about?



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 4 2010 1:28:50)

quote:

When it comes to pumice and french polish though, it helps not to think of the filling and finishing as two separate processes. I fill my guitars a few times with pumice and then start in on building up finish. However I keep the pumice handy the whole time. When I find a pore that isn't filled, rather than keep laying on the shellac only to sand it off, I do another go around with the pumice, very lightly though as to not get pumice deposits. It is also really handy for leveling the finish, again rather than sanding. I use it on the top as well. Things go by much quicker this way than they did before, with better results.


I agree with Aaron
When I started porefilling, I thought I had to leave a very thin layer of shellack and completely porefill with pumice and alcohol before doing the French Polish. Now I leave a layer which is somewhat thicker from the start and I use the pumice as integral part of the whole proces. It works a lot better. French Polishing and porefilling with pumice is a very personal thing.



estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 4 2010 9:32:41)

quote:

would you tell me more about the look of egg white?


Bust open an egg and separate the white from the yolk. Get a brush and a bowl of clean water. Thin the egg white a tiny bit so you can brush it out. Brush it on a piece of scrap sanded to be ready for finish. Like progressive grit sanding by hand until you get to 320.

Let us know what happens.

After that when it has dried hard, sand it back and see what happens. Tell us what you see.

Edit, I committed a blunder, when I so blithely said Egg white is for tempera CA is for pore filling.....egg yolk is for tempera. Eggwhite was used as a sealer before a gesso was applied to the wood panel or to seal down chalk or charcoal lines.

If you want to know more about how these materials were used the basic book is called The Artist Handbook by Ralph Mayer.



estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 4 2010 9:37:56)

Just a word about random orbital sanders and vibrational palm sanders. If you are a beginner and you don't have a lot of experience yet, you may find that if you don't use the right grit paper with a random orbital sander you can chew through the soft grain of the wood faster than the hard grain. This will mess up your nice expensive top by leaving it with tiny depressions between the hard grain lines you'll have to hand sand out with a hard block. Get on your magnifiers and look at your surface and see what's going on.

But do what ever you want, I'm not your mother. Just saying.



jshelton5040 -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 4 2010 10:03:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike_Kinny

Thanks for thinking that I'm a pro builder but I'm just an amateur.

You build and sell guitars for profit, doesn't that make you a professional? It seems to me a while back you were talking about shooting for a production of up to 20 guitars a year. That's a professional is anyone's book.



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 4 2010 11:48:55)

Hey Stephen,

That blanca you dropped by my house last night is f**king killer. WAY beyond amateur.

Some lucky player is going to get one hell of a deal on a beast of a guitar because of the cosmetic flaw in the top. I love the arabic green rosette and those trebles are really nice. Thick yet potent and perfect for cutting through the noise. I think a hair lower action would be great, but other than that, it is a first rate instrument. Just watch out with that "amateur" BS..... I don't believe it for a second.

I can't wait to hear to black acacia guitar you are going to build for me...... I really miss that 7 string. What a guitar.

J



estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 4 2010 16:58:58)

Thank you Jason, you're a great supporter of guitar making and a heck of a Monopoly player.



Mike_Kinny -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 5 2010 5:06:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jshelton5040

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike_Kinny

Thanks for thinking that I'm a pro builder but I'm just an amateur.

You build and sell guitars for profit, doesn't that make you a professional? It seems to me a while back you were talking about shooting for a production of up to 20 guitars a year. That's a professional is anyone's book.


I was tempted to leave it at that and let people think that I'm pro and a pro who is too modest to admit it, but then the good part of me (yes I also have a good part) said Mike go there and tell them the truth.

John you are confusing me with someone else.



Mike_Kinny -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 5 2010 5:14:35)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Just a word about random orbital sanders and vibrational palm sanders. If you are a beginner and you don't have a lot of experience yet, you may find that if you don't use the right grit paper with a random orbital sander you can chew through the soft grain of the wood faster than the hard grain. This will mess up your nice expensive top by leaving it with tiny depressions between the hard grain lines you'll have to hand sand out with a hard block. Get on your magnifiers and look at your surface and see what's going on.

But do what ever you want, I'm not your mother. Just saying.


Good point! So if anyone wants to try it at home be aware of that.

Don't press the sander on the soundboard. The sander's own weight should be enough. I use new sandpaper and start with 320 grit, then 400 to 500 and finally 600.

What estebanana described can also happen when french polishing if you press too much.



estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 5 2010 18:13:37)

The reason I know this stuff cold is because over the years I've done about everything you can do wrong. When I mess something up I figure it out and don't do that anymore. A lot of guitar making is learning to fix your mistakes or learning to avoid your own mannerisms which lead out into doing goofed up stuff.

Some mistakes are real booty kickers and you have to go back to square one and begin over and some are harmless, but just embarrassing later. Sometimes even funny. I made a small period piece guitar out of some Honduran rosewood and forgot to check to make sure I glued the tail block to the ribs so the ribs' grain matched. I actually glued one rib inside out and upside down so the grain pattern did not look like a nice mirror image. They were opposed in pattern. I did not even see it until I handed the guitar to the client.

That was nine years ago. I've almost done that again. You'll be surprised at how many stupid ways you can Eff up. Every long time master or professional level guitar maker I've talked to has said the same thing. "Oh I've done some real stupid stuff."



JasonMcGuire -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 6 2010 4:05:03)

Well as promised Stephen..... a video on the blanca you just finished. I wish I didn't have to give it back to you tomorrow.




Andy Culpepper -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 6 2010 5:07:05)

Nice guitar!
Is that Port Orford cedar anything like "Wasillawood"? (aka alaskan yellow cedar or Canadian cypress). I'm building with that right now.



estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 6 2010 10:20:52)

quote:

Is that Port Orford cedar anything like "Wasillawood"?


Kind of in that it sounds totally "mavericky" and Tina Fey ordered one just like it. :)



estebanana -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 6 2010 10:32:09)

Sorry this is off topic for your thread Mike. I'll post video by itself and say a few things about this guitar if you want.



Mike_Kinny -> RE: Pros and cons og porefilling a guitar with egg white (Jan. 6 2010 12:29:29)

That would be interesting. Let's see the video.



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