Madrid vs Granada (Full Version)

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orsonw -> Madrid vs Granada (Dec. 17 2009 12:45:43)

I often hear people refer to Granada or Madrid guitars.

I am interested to learn what are the differences between these guitars?

Which do people prefer? Which are the best builders from each school?

Any insight, or opinions (hopefully here I can expect at least a few of those!)

Here's my uninformed opinion- Madrid- more solid mids, even and balanced, tighter bass, stiffer pulsation. Granada more romantic, resonant with singing trebles, bass more booming, softer pulsation.



avimuno -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Dec. 17 2009 13:22:54)

Hi,

I'm not a builder so I can only give you my very humble opinion as a player whose owned guitars from both traditions.
Madrid guitars tend to be bigger... both in size and sound. They have a strong focussed midrange that cuts through very nicely. They also tend to be fairly dry and have a big sound to them. Examples of Madrid guitars would be Conde, Pedro de Miguel, Ramirez, Teodoro Perez etc
On the other hand, Granada guitars tend to be a bit smaller (many of the Granada builders still use the smaller Torres body). They are very raspy and aggressive, and although they don't quite have a big focussed midrange, they still cut very nicely. They also tend to sound a bit thinner than Madrid guitars. That said, they also tend to be more lyrical and have a true Andalucian voice.
Famous Granada builders include Antonio Marin Montero, Plazuelo, Antonio Raya Pardo, the Bellido family etc.

I also agree with you: Madrid guitars have a stiffer pulsation than Granada guitars (or at least my Conde did compared to my Raya Pardo).



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Dec. 17 2009 23:49:34)

If we talk about newer guitars, the difference doesnt exist anymore. And its been so for decades.
A difference nowadays is that guitars made in Andalucia focus more on traditional making while in Madrid, there´s a lot of import from Valencia with another label glued in. One of the few "real" Madrid makers is Romero. I, as a player personally dont like them, but as a builder I can say that they are very fine instruments if its the sound and feeling you are looking for.

In Andalucia, some of the best flamenco guitars are made outside Granada. I can say Cordoba, Andujar, Almeria, Huelva, just to mention a few and none of those are in the old fashioned Madrid/Granada tradition



Armando -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Dec. 18 2009 13:07:23)

quote:

Madrid vs Granada


I think the topic should be titeled "Madrid and Granada" instead of "Madrid vs Granada" as the aim of the luthiers of both cities is not to outbeat each other.

There are excellent luthiers in both cities and if i had to deside between one ore another i would focus on the luthier regardless of the city where it comes from.

Anders is right, that some famous madrillenian brands do not build their guitars fully by themselves since the demand is too high. The cheaper studio line guitars are therefore outsourced to guitarmaking factories in valencia and they are a whole lot different from the 1a models.

Regarding the differencies in size i cannot confirm that the bodies of madrillenian guitars are biger in size than the granadians in general. It depends on the maker. There are guitarmakers in madrid who work with smaller bodies such as Angel Benito Aguado and there are granadian makers such as Antonio Marín Montero who's guitars are not any smaller in size than the average madrillenian guitar. Remember that Santos have built his guitars also rather small bodied compared to todays Condes or Ramirez guitars.

Soundwise there might be some difference but that depends also much more on the maker rather than on the origin of the guitar.

regards

Armando



Guest -> [Deleted] (Dec. 19 2009 7:40:47)

[Deleted by Admins]



Morao -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Dec. 19 2009 13:55:47)

Your right, Nealf. Good luck Anders! [:D]

Isn´t Jose Pena Rodriguez from Andujar?
But he moved to Cordoba some years ago.

I think in Granada the succesors of the Bellido familiy is Jesus, the son of Manuel. And of course Daniel Gil de Avalle who also learned from Manuel Bellido.

The new generation of buildern, hm..for me there is Andres D Marvi, Jose Pena Rodriguez and Jose Marin Plazuelo which are now already well known builders. I think Conde will be like Ramirez in some years...



buleria74 -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 11:20:17)

Well, many Granada guitars have slightly smaller body, however it depens on the maker. Nowdays Granada guitars have grown in size and shape and the boxes
are becoming wider. Madrid had many great builders before but unfortunately many are gone and many are producing low quality instruments like Conde and Ramirez outsourcing which is awfull if you look at their prices.

On the other hand, number of guitarreros in Granda is increasing so is the quality of sound. Looking at the price, sound and pulsation the best maker in my opinion is now in Granada, Jose Manuel Fernandez Enriquez.
His prices are on around €2000 , for that he makes guitars worth double
that price at least.

Sam.



Arash -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 11:53:36)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf

(look at Conde ..average guitars, ridiculous prices and suckers who buy them everyday)


i am not sure about this.
i mean there are many pros. , playing Conde without beeing paid by Conde or something. Some of them even make marketing for other brands, but when they give concerts, you see them with their Conde.



TANúñez -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 12:11:40)

I must be one of those suckers then because I love a good Conde.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 12:25:45)

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ



Ron.M -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 12:27:31)

quote:

Some of them even make marketing for other brands, but when they give concerts, you see them with their Conde.


Arash,

That's because Conde is the best guitar thats ever been made.
Even if it's built with other builders...or even in a small factory.

Makes no difference..

If it says Conde on the label, then it's the best you are ever gonna get.

That's why all the top players play them.

cheers,

Ron



buleria74 -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 12:31:28)

very absurd way of looking at this[:D]


if its conde its the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no logic in your words.[8|]



Arash -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 12:42:33)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

Some of them even make marketing for other brands, but when they give concerts, you see them with their Conde.


Arash,

That's because Conde is the best guitar thats ever been made.
Even if it's built with other builders...or even in a small factory.

Makes no difference..

If it says Conde on the label, then it's the best you are ever gonna get.

That's why all the top players play them.

cheers,

Ron


i don't know if this comment is meant to be ironic or not.

if so, i am still asking myself, why so many pros. play Conde. and am waiting for an answer.
it is for sure not because they are victims of marketing or because paco played Conde or......
i am sure that guitarists with that skill, want a guitar which suits them in all aspects. and they are free to choose whatever guitar they like in their concerts etc.
so the only conclusion for me would be that they like condes and prefer them over many others.

of course there are all the negative aspects which we know and which we talked about several times (fakes, built by others, overpriced, etc.). i was one of those "Conde haters" in the past, just because i tried 2 condes and didn't like them at THAT time. could have been my poor skill, could have been that those condes were really not good, could have been something else.
recently i played a A26 from a friend, and it was the best guitar i ever had in my hands and tried out.
would like to add that i play more powerful than in the past, so maybe this is also a reason. i am not sure.



TANúñez -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 13:57:47)

Arash,

I'm sure Ron was being sarcastic. At least I got that impression.[:)]

A lot of musicians play them because they are good "workhorse" guitars. They have a great sound. Great playability. I'm not saying they are the best guitars ever created though. I just prefer what a good Conde offers. Not all Condes are good as you may know. I've played some that should never have left the shop in the first place. Some of these were even from the Felipe V shop and this is supposedly the only shop to get a "good" one. I have played some really good Gravina Condes. So there's no truth to that.

It probably all comes down to personal preference. The only way to know why they are used is to asked the guys who use them.



Arash -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 14:21:34)

you know, its a little bit strange.

i have never heard anybody saying in a foro that a guitar of an quite unknown amateur builder was bad or not suitable.
they seam to be all terrific. like

Mr. A from Alaska builds fantastic guitars.

Mr. B from USA builds the best guitars.

Mr. C from Canada builts guitars which are far better than any other guitar i have ever heard.

etc.....etc....etc.....

even someone who is building his first guitar as hobby, seams to be better than conde.

seams like , acc. foro opinion, all guitars out there are good, only Condes suck !

but many many pros. play Condes.

don't know, the A26 i played had the best setup and playability from all guitars which i tried and that sound which i am (now) looking for. unfortunately, it was not for sale . if so, i would have bought it immediately withough thinking twice.
maybe it was an exceptional one, maybe some others (same model) are not that good. maybe the one i played, was outsourced to a 18 year boy in valencia. i don't know and i don't care. the guitar was fantastic, whoever built it.

i am starting to understand why many good players prefer them over anything else.

however, this was a development of my taste during the years.
so i don't know what i prefer or like in say 5 years. i just can talk about what its right now.
maybe in the future, i will hate them again [:D]



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 14:38:45)

I've heard some Condes that sounded incredible. The best Condes are some of the best guitars in the world.
I think the anger towards the Conde brand comes from their inconsistency in quality and their murky and questionable business practices. Just like any other kind of guitar, they are not for everbody.
But I would also say that, if you buy a guitar from any experienced luthier working alone or with a few helpers, you have a better chance of getting a great guitar than if you just grab a random Conde. That's because the individual luthier can build differently depending on the particular top they are using. They can brace lighter or stronger depending on the stiffness of the top, and can take time to tune the guitar properly. This makes for a more consistant product than some factories that just build blindly to certain specifications without taking into account variations in the materials etc.



Arash -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 15:52:46)

quote:

ORIGINAL: nealf

(look at Conde ..average guitars, ridiculous prices and suckers who buy them everyday)


















and many many others.....

i just did a quick search.
the list would be much longer if i would research who else plays a conde and post all players. i would say from 2 guitarists, at least one of them plays a conde (maybe also in addition to other brands, but conde is included)

if all these guys are suckers,,,,, then probably most flamenco guitarists are suckers



Andy Culpepper -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 18:05:37)

That's an impressive list there. I hear "Paco de Lucia" plays one too.

We should also do a study on the prevalence of those Dunlop capos [8D]



Arash -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 18:13:47)

there are many others, i didn't post a vid from,,,,like

Pedro Sierra
Nino Josele
Moraito
Nino de Pura
Nino Ricardo
Miguel Angel Cortes
Jose Antonio Rodriguez
tomatito

etc......all of them (also) play a conde. some of them only a conde.
the list is endless

of course there are also some who don't play a conde at all (as far as i know) like paco pena, vicente amigo, etc.....



BarkellWH -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 24 2010 18:21:27)

There are some excellent guitar makers that are not discussed in this thread. My feeling is that Conde, as good as it has been, may eventually go the way of Ramirez, I.E., living off its reputation long after others have surpassed it. Two very good luthiers are Vicente Carrillo and Manuel Adilid (Esteve). Both make fine flamenco guitars with a very rich sound.

Cheers,

Bill



stephen hill -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 0:09:53)

hmm, conde .. arnt they made in Valencia.. I am from the UK but now work in Granada, and my guitars are somewhere between madrid and Granada with a strong Cordoba influence..! The traditions are melting somewhat but you could previously define a guitar by cities, now it more according to the individual makers. One point tho, many Granadan guitars are french polished, whereas Madrid (or perhaps valencian) are pistola with nitro..



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 0:21:44)

Funny enough.
I went to a big show here in Huelva with a lot of the very top players: Tomatito, Pepe Habichuela, Manolo Sanlucar, Romero, M. A. Cortez, Rodriguez and some others which I have forgotten.

NOONE played a Conde., but I guess it s because they dont know? Better write them a mail Ron.

A lot of fantastic guitars with the Label saying Conde have been made, but its all history IMO. What they produce now looks like a piece of mass produced plastic imported from China and the sound is close to that as well.

Besides, this thread has been hijacked by Conde freaks (again) Maybe you dont know that when you talk about Madrid/Granada you dont include Condes. They are not considered to be typical Madrid guitars like Ramirez, Barbero, Contreras, Romero, Pedro de Miguel etc.



Pimientito -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 2:29:20)

As a player of both Conde and Granada makers I can say the difference is sound quality and feel. To me the Granada makers make guitars which project a lot of volume but ultimately have a crisp and dry sound. In some ways they are harder work to play, you really have to attack the instrument to get the best out of it. However you find that the style of playing in Granada is pretty strong too. A player who has not grown up in this environment ie. outside of Spain may find these instruments less easy to handle than a Madrid/ Valencia guitar.
Bellidos' son Jesus is indeed carrying on the tradition in Granada and continuing to make fine instruments. The other makers that I rate here are Marin, Fransisco Manuel Diaz, Rafeal Moreno and Juan Carmona Carmona. The Ramirez, Hernandez and Conde (sorry guys) IMO have a more resonant quality, slightly more "reverby". They are generally easier to play for that reason as they need less work to produce a pleasing tone.

quote:

I think the anger towards the Conde brand comes from their inconsistency in quality and their murky and questionable business practices.

Totally agree 100 per cent. The best Condes are great guitars. The mediocre Condes are indeed overpriced regular instruments. I think its a bit over the top to say that all Condes are mediocre and everyone else makes better guitars for half the price. The pros don't just choose those guitars because Paco played one. They are an industry standard among players because the very best examples are amazing guitars. Saying that (and God knows i have written enough on this last year) their business practice is extremely bad and I think they would be a lot more respected if they traded solely on realistic numbers of fine instruments and not on their name.

quote:

this thread has been hijacked by Conde freaks (again)

Considering that Conde are sold in MADRID its a bit difficult not to mention them in a thread about Madrid guitars regardless of their origin.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 2:36:08)

quote:

my guitars are somewhere between madrid and Granada with a strong Cordoba influence..!


Yes, thats what I try to say as well. The Madrid - Granada etc difference hardly exist anymore, if at all. We are all influenced by what we consider great guitars and we always try to find out out own way of crating what we consider a fine instrument using the information that our own guitars give us and also the inspiration from the great guitars we have tried.
The provincial difference has IMO disappeared like so many other things because of modern world acces to try things, in this case guitars, from various points of the world.



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 2:41:56)

Pimiento,
basically I disagree with most of the observations you have in your post. I find that many traditional Granada guitars are very easy to play often with a tendency to bail out. The modern Granada builders, in general, build bigger and harder guitars which is one of the reasons I say that the whole discussion of regional differences in guitar building is absurd.

quote:

Considering that Conde are sold in MADRID its a bit difficult not to mention them in a thread about Madrid guitars regardless of their origin.


Yes, they are from Madrid, but many builders and players, not just me, dont consider condes to be typically Madrid sounding. Talking about old guitars, many have the opinion that there´s Granada school, Madrid school and condes....



Pimientito -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 3:35:14)

quote:

many have the opinion that there´s Granada school, Madrid school and condes....

Im not trying to argue here but just clarify something. You would consider Santos Hernandez and Domingo Esteso to be madrid school right?

Secondly, Its not so much that the Granada guitars are harder to play, but I do generally think that they have a characteristically "dry" sound compared to say the valencian guitars and are best sounding when played with a lot of attack.
You may or may not agree with that statement.
PS I don't really know what you mean by "bail out"



XXX -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 3:35:20)

My guitar comes from a town in USA, whose name i have never heard of and wouldnt know where it locates [&:] but it sounds better than i can play.



Ron.M -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 3:43:20)

quote:

















and many many others.....

i just did a quick search.
the list would be much longer if i would research who else plays a conde and post all players. i would say from 2 guitarists, at least one of them plays a conde (maybe also in addition to other brands, but conde is included)

if all these guys are suckers,,,,, then probably most flamenco guitarists are suckers


Hey Arash...

You missed this guy!




cheers,

Ron



Ron.M -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 4:18:53)

quote:

very absurd way of looking at this


if its conde its the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! no logic in your words.


OK buleria74...I was joking...

But what I find absurd and confusing is this....

It would seem that considering the number of very famous players who choose Conde, that the sound, playability, projection etc is just about perfect for a Flamenco guitar.
The modern players like 'em and the traditional players like 'em.

So it would seem that a good, well set-up Conde design cannot really be surpassed.

So what is the point of other builders making their own guitars?

I mean...say I'm building guitars and selling my best model made with the best materials for a certain price.
The Conde guys take a look at my work and like it, so they negociate with me to build them 20 guitars to their design using their specified materials for a certain trade price.

I carry out the work and deliver them to Conde who test them and label them and sell them at a price much in excess of my "normal" 1a.

Also I see that they are much sought after and get rave reviews from happy customers.

When the contract runs out, I see that another builder has been commissioned for the next run (maybe due to cheaper supply cost).

Now what is the incentive for me to go back to building my own models again?
Especially if my customers would prefer a Conde if they could afford it.

Very disheartening.

It would make me feel like giving up and just take to taxi driving instead! [:D]

Maybe I've got the understanding wrong...but that's the absurd state of affairs as it appears to me. [:-]

It would seem the goal for every maker would be to get a Conde franchise!

cheers,

Ron



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Madrid vs Granada (Jan. 25 2010 5:20:11)

quote:

My guitar comes from a town in USA, whose name i have never heard of and wouldnt know where it locates but it sounds better than i can play.


Olé [:D][:D]

tghere must be some kind of school we havent heard of over there... Madrid school, Granada school, Condes and the mystical Amerian school.



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