Romanza Anonima

Romanza Anonima (Full Version)

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Pimientito -> Romanza Anonima (Dec. 6 2009 2:51:09)
The Romanza anonima must be one of the best known guitar pieces both among guitar players and the public in general. I had believed that no-one really knows who wrote it which is why it remains anonymous. I recently found an (anecdotal) reference that atributes the piece to Miguel Llobet. 1. Has anyone else here ever heard of the Romanza being atributed to LLobet? 2. Does anyone know when the Romanza was first recorded? Llobet was performing at the turn of the 20th century and the musical style would certainly fit. Was the romanza being played before LLobet? I'm just interested to see if it can be tracked to any one composer.

Pimientito -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 6 2009 6:51:43)
No replies anyone...well my curiosity got the better of me on this one. There are thousands of recordings of this piece but very little information about it. Edventually I found an interesting comment on a classical forum about this. "Romanza Anonima (que no es anonima sino de Narciso Yepes quien solo lo reconoció al final de su vida)" "Que??? Cual es la prueba de este comentario? Pienso que te han enganado, tio." "Hombre, pues si me han engañado, ha sido el mismisimo Naciso Yepes en persona. Yo estuve presente en una entrevista en uno de sus ultimos viajes a Chile, donde reconoció publicamente la autoría de tan conocido tema un par de años antes que se le solicitara hacer la musica para la pélícula "Juegos Prohibidos". La verdad es que sentí que Narciso no estaba mintiendo dado que durante años le preguntaron acerca de lo mismo y el contestaba con evasivas sin reconocerlo. Yo no invento nada, fui testigo presencial de lo que te comento." which (roughly)says "Romanza Anonima (which isnt anonymous but for Narciso Yepes who only took recognition (for it) at the end of his life" "What ??? Wheres the proof in that comment? I think you've been tricked man! "Well If I've been tricked it was by the same Narsico Yepes in person. I was present at an interview in one of his last trips to Chile, where he publicly claimed authorship of the well known theme a couple of years before being asked to do the music for the film "forbidden games" The truth is I felt that Narciso was not lying given that during many years of being asked about this same thing, he had answered evasively. I'm not inventing anything, I was a witness to what he said"

Ramon Amira -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 6 2009 7:23:44)
Yes, "Romance" sometimes called "Romance D'Amor" and other names is certainly one of the best known and most popular pieces ever written for guitar. When classical guitarists get together the subject of authorship invariably comes up sooner or later, and it has been debated for a very long time. I have heard anecdotal references to Llobet as the author, but it seems unlikely. Narciso Yepes claimed authorship, but there was evidence that it had been played before he was born. Vicente Gomez published his version of it (which I have) and included a real nice intro. He played the piece in the 1941 film "Blood and Sand." I got together with Vicente many times when I was living in California. I once asked him who he thought wrote it. He gave me a sly smile (he had the best smile of anyone I have ever met) and said, "I did." Incidentally Vicente was another flamenco guitarist who also was a master of classical guitar, and whose flamenco music has been widely published. He was a fine flamenco guitarist, who unfortunately has been largely overlooked. There is just one video of him on YouTube, playing Alegrias, and flashing that great smile. I have never known anyone who played with as much great joy and enthusiasm as Vicente. I have my own theory that it was composed by Fernando Sor. The style is similar to a lot of Sor's compositions, but especially to one of his pieces, a study in E Minor, generally referred to by classical guitarists as "Sor 17," the reference being to the famous Segovia Twenty Sor Studies, Segovia having once said that anyone who can play all of those twenty studies fluently can play anything. This particular study was number seventeen of the Segovia Sor Studies. It bears a striking similarity in that it is also in E Minor, the melody line is on the first string, just like "Romance," and is generally brought out with rest strokes, and the accompaniment is mostly on the second and third strings, just as in "Romance," and played free stroke. It also starts in E Minor and then goes to E Major, exactly like "Romance." If you play them both in succession you get the feeling that the same composer wrote both, but unfortunately it's not likely that the question will ever be definitively answered.

Estevan -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 6 2009 8:22:27)
Now there's one piece I'd be happy to never hear again.[8D] I was going to say that this should be in the Off Topic section, but perhaps there is a tenuous flamenco connection via Vicente Gomez and possibly even El Murciano. There's also a possible Russian/Ukrainian connection. It doesn't seem to be possible to establish its origins definitively, but it's certain that neither Yepes nor Gomez was the author. You can read the whole story here: Qué (no) sabemos del Romance ¿Anónimo? [8\|]

Pimientito -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 6 2009 9:09:54)
quote: Segovia having once said that anyone who can play all of those twenty studies fluently can play anything That was in the year 24 BP (Before Paco). Anyway thanks for the input guys and the link to that essay Esteban. It doesnt fit well to me that Yepes wrote that piece although I can see why he would have liked to take the credit later in life. A tune like that with no owner must be worth more than a few dollars. The style seems older and I can believe that Sor came up with something similar. Its possible the Romanza is simply someone elses variation on the E minor study.

Ramon Amira -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 6 2009 9:32:38)
Well I'm with Estevan - if I never hear that piece for the rest of my life it will be too soon. If anyone would like to hear the "Sor 17" study for comparison, go here:

Wannabee -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 6 2009 17:22:36)
I think it's safe to assume that it was not written by F. Sor. Anyone familiar with his writing style would say the same. Sor's pieces are far more harmonically and technically complex than the piece in question. Even study 17 that you refer to is about 100 times more difficult to learn and play. But if you like, here's a more flamenco version:

Ramon Amira -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 7 2009 11:48:09)
quote: I think it's safe to assume that it was not written by F. Sor. When I said I had a "theory," I wasn't trying to posit any kind of scientific musicological theory. In cases like this it's merely "fun speculation." But since you mentioned it, I would point out that Sor wrote hundreds of pieces, and hardly all of them were "far more harmonically and technically complex than the piece in question." He wrote many simple pieces. In fact you don't need to go further than the Twenty Studies themselves to see this. Estudios 2,3,4,and 5 are not very complex. More importantly the structure of Sor 17 and of Romance are almost identical – a well defined melody line played almost entirely on the first string, with arpeggio accompaniment mostly on the second and third strings, both in E Minor moving to E Major. The mood, tone, and overall "feel" of both pieces is very similar. But in any case, this is a flamenco forum and we're getting off track. I had seen that "flamenco" version by Diego Herrera. Cute. He's having fun - why not. Carlos Montoya played a rasgueado and tremolo version of "Autumn Leaves" fifty years ago. Paco Cepero slipped a direct quotation from the Russian folk song "Ochi Chernye" into a bulerias. Hilarious. I meant to give a link to Vicente Gomez – we should all only play with this much pure joy!

Wannabee -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 7 2009 14:35:56)
Well, I don't mean to argue, it's just that the Romanza (romance d'amour) or whatever you call it was the very first classical piece I learned. It took me all of 1 lesson to master the first section and by the 2nd lesson I had done part II. Sor's works always took me considerably more effort. Study # 2 in the Segovia book is probably the easiest, and yet it took me weeks if not months to get my fingers to play all the intricacies properly. I guess what I'm trying to say is, Sor's works look very easy, but to play them well takes more effort. I have played some of his more simple works that are not in the Segovia book, and even they are more difficult than the romance. By the way, have you heard Juan Serrano's rumba version? The rumba starts at 1:48 or so. The romance also goes by the name; Jeux Interdits: I was hoping to find the Mariano Cordoba version as well, but I can only find some of his other works played by this guy:

Ramon Amira -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 7 2009 14:46:31)
Well, I love Juan, but this rumba has inspired me to create my very own "Romanza por Siguiriyas."

aeolus -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 7 2009 14:52:46)
My copy of Romanza published by Balwin-Mills in 1940 says arranged by Vicente Gomez. So we can't pin it on him. Christopher Parkening was on a program with Placiso Domengiz at Avery Fisher hall where he played the Romanza as his first solo piece. I couldn't believe it. Segovia must have rolled in his grave that his fav student would play that. Later Christopher played an acompliment with condiderable , er, flair. http://tinyurl.com/y9696zh

Ramon Amira -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 7 2009 16:12:28)
Well – imagine Parkening playing a bit of Granadinas there – cejilla and all. Guitarists – flamenco as well as classical – will find it interesting that Parkening plays "Romance" with different right hand fingering from just about everyone else. Normally the melody is played on the first string with A, and the accompaniment on the second and third with M and I. Parkening dispenses with A altogether, plays first string with M, and the arpeggios with I and P. I noticed that on the video below, because I have been doing the same thing for a long time in certain toques, Granadinas arpeggios for example. I did it out of necessity - I had some physical problems with A, and so I devised that fingering, and I was surprised when I saw Parkening using it. I suspect other players do the same.

Pimientito -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 8 2009 0:03:46)
quote: Sor's pieces are far more harmonically and technically complex than the piece in question. I have to agree with prominent critic on this one. The 20 Segovia studies are some of Sors more difficult studies picked out by Segovia from Sors archive. But he wrote literally hundreds of short exercises and studies and many are very simple indeed, often single note melodies accentuated with an occasional bass note. At the time there were many players with their own "schools of guitar" also writing hundreds of short tunes and exercises. It could easily have been based on a study by one of Sors contemporaries Carulli, Diabelli, Aguado, Carcassi, Guiliani or even a guitar composition by Paganini.

aeolus -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 8 2009 4:51:41)
quote: Parkening dispenses with A altogether, Maybe he thinks that is the way Sor would have played it[;)] Or he wanted to deploy his strongest digits for unamped concert work. VG has it fingered with the a.

Ramon Amira -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 8 2009 8:10:16)
quote: or even a guitar composition by Paganini. That's an intriguing idea – that maybe it was written by Paganini. Of course he wrote plenty of music for guitar, as well as for violin and guitar. Besides being probably the greatest violin virtuoso ever, it was said that he was a highly accomplished guitarist, and when he would play his music for violin and guitar with someone, he would play the guitar part.

Pimientito -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 8 2009 8:41:17)
I have facsimiles of The complete guitar works of Paganini. His works are numerous and fill 3 volumes. Rather than write out everything i have copied an extract from the preface which is interesting. Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Wannabee -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 8 2009 14:28:06)
OK, you make a good point that Sor had some very simple compositions, so why would he not have put his name on the Romance then if he had indeed composed it? He has his name on much simpler works, as you say. I've read a comment on youtube that someone somewhere thinks that perhaps maybe possibly a student of Tarrega wrote the Romance, but I don't know how sound a notion that would be. To me, the style of the piece sounds much more close to Tarrega's style than to Sor's, but that's just an opinion again. Anyway, perhaps someone somewhere sometime will dig up some concrete evidence one way or another. Wikipedia has an interesting entry regarding this piece: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romance_(song) The style of the piece is that of the Parlour music of the late 19th century in Spain, having a closed three-part form: the first in the minor key and the second being in the major key, with the third being a restatement of the first.

aeolus -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 16 2009 4:43:12)
Browsing thru The Art of the Spanish guitar by Celino Romero, I find Romance Anonimo attributed to Fernando Sor and a foot note that recent research has uncovered a manuscript by the hand of Sor implying it may be his composition.Ccase closed?

Pimientito -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 16 2009 6:27:14)
Is the foot note referenced? Can you scan the page and post it please?

aeolus -> RE: Romanza Anonima (Dec. 16 2009 7:09:39)
The piece is on the next page. [img]http://i46.tinypic.com/2v28dy0.jpg [/img]

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