Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar

Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Full Version)

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zenin -> Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 26 2009 4:43:43)
Hi everyone, Just wondering if another pair of eyes could put me to ease on this guitar i made an offer on? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250505676492&ssPageName=ADME:B:BOC:US:1123 Can anyone on this forum verify that this is the 'real deal' Ramirez if that era 61 ? The Seller look legit, but i keep looking at the pictures and something with the label doesn't look right...am i just being overly paranoid, but for $2900 this seems to good to be true for a vintage Ramirez. Also did the individual builders at that time use stamping to ID who built the instruments from that era? Is the rosette another possible way of ID the builder of this guitar? Any input more than welcome as the deal seem to good to be true Thanks Bryce

zenin -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 26 2009 5:01:38)
Also there seems to be a lot of what looks like dry glue showing in the inside of the body around the heel (?) it seems to be pretty rough finishing, was this normal or could the neck have been damaged and quickly repaired? thanks again to anyone who can help....

Sbu_01 -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 26 2009 10:14:54)
Well it seems nice, but the seller doesnt seem to know what he has, he labels as a Flamenco Classical, not sure which one it is. I couldnt see a stamp in there it might be a student guitar. But I could be wrong, Im not a Jose Ramirez historian so for what its worth be very careful.

Patrick -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 26 2009 13:36:43)
The reason it is not stamped is it is not an IA. At the time this guitar was built they did not use the designation 2A and 1A, but what it means is it was not built by one of their master builders. The label is exactly as it should be. Don’t let that dissuade you. They built guitars with a very strict standard, so it should be fine. Also, keep in mind the wood they used might not have been the best at the time, but could be exceptional for today’s market. Take a look at the info at the bottom of the page: http://www.guitarrasramirez.com/english/etiquetas2En.html $2,900 is it bit high for me.

zenin -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 27 2009 3:44:41)
Thanks everyone for your help, i worked it out that it's a 2A Model, as per the label color. Thanks again!!

keith -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 27 2009 7:02:27)
as patrick stated, the price being asked is high. in 2005 i purchased a 1966 2a for $2000 and the condition was about the same as the one listed--i purchased during the economic good times so $2900 is pretty steep. the thing that bothers me are the strings. they have ball ends. true the owner may not know how to tie strings (he definitely does not know how to thread both E strings into the pegs--the are going inside and should be outside) but what the ball end may suggest is some neck angle/break angle problems. using ball end strings one does not have to tie the string which lifts the string upward thus reducing the break angle. i wonder if the neck angle has shifted over the years so the action is high and to get it lower with reasonable break angle the owner used ball end strings. obviously it is difficult to tell from the photo but i would definitely would want to check it out. the problem can be corrected but it will cost some money.

aarongreen -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 28 2009 5:31:08)
The guitar looks pretty good to me from the photos but the tap plate is coming up and will need to be replaced. The ball end strings are certainly indicate the seller's lack of enthusiasm for tying strings or his ignorance. In and of themselves I wouldn't worry about it anymore than I would with any guitar that I was buying sight unseen. The glue around the slipper foot should be hide glue, from that vintage and while there is more than I saw on the P.B 1961 Ramirez I just restored, it could be just a case of an overzealous glue application when the back went on. Could be a very nice guitar. aaron

zenin -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 29 2009 2:47:29)
Aaron, Thanks nice to get your feedback on the glue issues, i appreciate, hope to one day own one of your amazing instruments.

zenin -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 29 2009 2:50:45)
OK, So my next question is if there is any information about the Ramirez factory for those years (1961 in particular) which may tell who where working as a apprentice in that year as some 48 years later it could be a builder who went onto build for himself and could still be alive today. One thought i had is that the Rosette may have been a builders ID or maybe there was other tricks that builders used to individualize their guitars?.... While I know i am not going to find out for sure who build this 61 Ramirez, it would be nice to know of a short list of names that were involved involved in building the 2A Models in that year or around that early part of the 1960's. thanks

zenin -> RE: Can U Help Verify -- 1961 Jose Ramirez Flamenco Guitar (Nov. 29 2009 2:55:38)
[[[ This is a list of names that past through the Ramirez Factory, maybe some knows if any of these builders were there during 1961. Apprentice's are probably a lot harder to pin down as builders of individual instruments as they may have not stayed full term to gain the right to build as a Journeyman with Ramirez III.... ]]] We are often asked what the initials in the Ramirez Guitars represent. The following is a list of luthiers of the Ramirez workshop and their initials: MAG - Manuel Alonso Gimenez: Although these were his initials, he ever never used them. He used a number instead. PC - Cayetano Alvarez Luna: He didn't use his own initials. When he made guitars he used Pedro Contreras' initials PC. JLA - José Luis Alvarez Mariblanca Paulino Bernabe Almendariz CB - Carlos Blanco Pena: Although these were his initials, he ever never used them. He used a number instead. EB - Enrique Borreguero Marcos: Although these were his initials, he ever never used them. He used a number instead. MC - Manuel Caceres Pizarro MG - Manuel Gonzales Contreras (from 1959-1962) AC - Alfonso Contreras Valbuena PC - Pedro Contreras Valbuena: He shared his initials with Cyetano Alvarez JF - José Flores Duro JG - Juan Garcia Rey PJ - Pedro Jimenez Posadas José Lopez Cubillo CLL - Carmelo Llerena Martinez MM - Miguel Malo Martinez FM - Felix Manzanero Pedro Manzanero Cabrera: He didn't use initials because he never made guitars. He cannot be considered a disciple of Ramirez when it comes to building guitars, only when speaking of bandurrias and lutes. IM - Ignacio Manzano Rozas AM - Antonio Martinez Ortega JM - Julian Moraga Rodriguez: Although these were his initials, he ever never used them. He used a number instead. FM - Fernando Morcuende De Cruz Ramón Peñalver Soler GP - (Goya) Pérez Mariblanca Manuel Rodriguez Fernandez: He is not a disciple of José Ramirez III. He was a workmate, and he left the workshop before Ramirez III unveiled all of his innovations. It is better to say that he was a disciple of José Ramirez II. JR - José Romero Garrido AS - Arturo Sanzano Moreno MTC - Mariano Tezanos Castro: He also used the initials MT, but he inverted the "T" in order to distinguish himself from his father. MT - Mariano Tezanos Martín[

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