Understanding Solea por Buleria (Full Version)

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Alonte -> Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 5 2009 15:26:30)

Hola Foreros! Understanding SPB has been bugging me for a while, I cant hear it most of the time. Is it a buleria played slower? but I heard slower bulerias before. A solea faster and in por medio? I still don't get it.



John O. -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 5 2009 22:22:27)

SPB is a palo all it's own. A solea can be played por medio, an SPB can be played por arriba. All 12-compás palos can end with bulerias, it has nothing to do with that either.

If you listen to a lot of them you'll hear that certain sound - phrygian, alegrias-speed, steady flowing rhythm. The traditional cante has a certain structure as well similar to the solea, in fact the entire traditional structure of the palo is very similar to the solea.

I have my entire flamenco collection on my computer with the palo in the titel. If I want to get to know a palo I just search it on the computer and have hundreds of them to put in a playlist. Really helps me a lot.



NormanKliman -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 5 2009 23:17:09)

quote:

Is it a buleria played slower? but I heard slower bulerias before. A solea faster and in por medio?

You could think of it either way. The cantes are bulerías but they're sung at the tempo of a fast soleá, considerably slower than a slow bulería. The toque depends entirely on the singer's voice and could just as easily be por arriba, as John has pointed out.

If there's no singing, it's just a fast soleá. The only thing that makes it soleá por bulería (also called bulería por soleá or bulerías para escuchar) is the singing. There are only a handful of these cantes, and all of them are also sung por bulerías. That's why the right name is actually bulerías por soleá, although it's become fashionable to say it the other way around. On old recordings, you never hear those cantes in a performance of straight soleá, but nowadays lots of singers do it when the tempo is quick. Have a look at this forum's recent cante accompaniment challenge for an example of this.

If you're really interested in the subject, you have to learn what makes those cantes different from straight soleá.

quote:

If I want to get to know a palo I just search it on the computer and have hundreds of them to put in a playlist. Really helps me a lot.


Yeah, it's very helpful. Aficionados used to do that decades ago with homemade cassette recordings. The practice may have been part of the reason for all those "Por..." anthologies that were released in the 1970s and 1980s.



Ailsa -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 5 2009 23:50:02)

quote:

If there's no singing, it's just a fast soleá. The only thing that makes it soleá por bulería (also called bulería por soleá or bulerías para escuchar) is the singing.


Well that's interesting I didn't know that. Sometimes when I hear a soleá por bulería guitar solo, it sounds very distinctive, not just a soleá at a faster tempo. It's instantly recognisable as SpB. Do you think perhaps there are some chords or figures in the playing that have become linked to SpB just through use and fashion, so that when you hear them you go, 'yep, that's SpB'??



John O. -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 6 2009 0:13:31)

I think that the modern Solea has slowed down a bit, SPB and Solea didn't used to be so far apart tempo-wise. That might explain the confusion listening to a solea or a SPB from modern guitarists.

This is interesting:



Besides the cante there really is no big difference, as Noman pointed out.

Didn't know that either - thanks! [:)]



NormanKliman -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 6 2009 2:02:47)

Hi Ailsa,

quote:

Do you think perhaps there are some chords or figures in the playing that have become linked to SpB just through use and fashion, so that when you hear them you go, 'yep, that's SpB'??


Well, it's hard to say. For one thing, you rarely hear a fast solo-guitar soleá (fast from the beginning), so when you do it's logical to associate it with SpB, especially if the guitarist is looking for some of those characteristic sounds. The sound of por medio playing is more closely associated with SpB (the kid accompanying Vicente in John's video) although there are some similar sounding chords por arriba.

In any case it's hard to say why someone will associate a certain sound with a certain idea. You might have an idea from a BpS recording in your head, but it doesn't mean that the same idea makes another recording BpS. I'm not trying to put your judgement into doubt, it's just that it's hard to say. A long time ago, I constantly confused siguiriyas and soleá accompanied por medio. After hearing a strong 1-2-3 por medio, I'd think that I knew what was going on.

Those are good videos, John, and very much to the point. Chano sings the soleás Joaquín el de La Paula 3 and Frijones 2 and Vicente sings the bulería larga, the corta, María La Moreno 1 (notice how it's based on the bulería larga) and Sordo La Luz, which are nearly all of the SpB cantes. In both videos, the tempo is quick, so it makes for an interesting comparison.

Edit: The cambio is kind of characteristic in BpS, especially with the C7 chord (C11) barred at the first fret por medio. For example, both styles attributed to María La Moreno push the cambio back to the end of the cante, because of the way they start.



John O. -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 6 2009 4:02:06)

Here's another interesting one, Sabicas playing solo:



It seems to me that Solea, same as I noticed with Seguiria, used to be played faster - even solo the modern guitarists play these palos a lot more libre and slowly than they used to.



Alonte -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 6 2009 10:52:21)

It seems to me the palos mentioned are identified by the Cante? I guess I missed the Cante challenge thread... does anybody have a link to it? (i tried searching but no luck)



Escribano -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 6 2009 11:13:42)

Alonte, it's here http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=117310&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=cante%2Cchallenge&tmode=&smode=&s=#117310

Long and not without some drama [;)]



Ron.M -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 6 2009 11:48:57)

quote:

A solea faster and in por medio? I still don't get it.


Alonte,

If your're just playing a guitar piece, then it's just like Soleares with the same timing and feel...(ie no starting falsetas on 12....just 1, 2, 3 etc)

Normally played in A and about the tempo of Alegrias.
For some reason the key of A makes it a bit "lighter" and not with the gravitas of pure Soleares in E. (IMO)

That's all.


quote:


Long and not without some drama.



[:D][:D][:D]

cheers,

Ron



henrym3483 -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 6 2009 12:54:04)

well i keep adding a 13th compas to it the whole time unluckily,[:D]

solea por buleria for me seems at odds with modern solea, modern solea is very rubato, the phrases seem alot more strecthed out, and some the phrases are left to hang in the air. sometimes in a tarantaesque fashion.

older solea, seems alot more straight forward ryhthmically, closer to the aire of spb and alot more danceable.



Ricardo -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 7 2009 6:17:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NormanKliman

quote:

Is it a buleria played slower? but I heard slower bulerias before. A solea faster and in por medio?

You could think of it either way. The cantes are bulerías but they're sung at the tempo of a fast soleá, considerably slower than a slow bulería. The toque depends entirely on the singer's voice and could just as easily be por arriba, as John has pointed out.

If there's no singing, it's just a fast soleá. The only thing that makes it soleá por bulería (also called bulería por soleá or bulerías para escuchar) is the singing. There are only a handful of these cantes, and all of them are also sung por bulerías. That's why the right name is actually bulerías por soleá, although it's become fashionable to say it the other way around. On old recordings, you never hear those cantes in a performance of straight soleá, but nowadays lots of singers do it when the tempo is quick. Have a look at this forum's recent cante accompaniment challenge for an example of this.

If you're really interested in the subject, you have to learn what makes those cantes different from straight soleá.

quote:

If I want to get to know a palo I just search it on the computer and have hundreds of them to put in a playlist. Really helps me a lot.


Yeah, it's very helpful. Aficionados used to do that decades ago with homemade cassette recordings. The practice may have been part of the reason for all those "Por..." anthologies that were released in the 1970s and 1980s.


In addition, it is common for singers to mix different letras together, so of those bulerias slowed down as you said (bulerias por solea), but also solea from Jerez which are typically faster than say solea anyway Alcala, but still simply a style of SOLEA. Good example is Frijones letras. Since they get mixed together A LOT in a single performance, and especially a DANCE, "Solea por Bulerias" makes a good title for the mix, and indeed seems to have evolved into the popular term for the song form vs "bulerias por solea". But it is true there used just be Solea, or Solea de Jerez, or Bulerias por Solea, and only one of the titles were used.

For guitarists the easy way to think about the playing is Solea is Slower, Solea por buleria will be faster, but also more steady tempo wise....and of course bulerias fast. The same exact falseta or strum or something could be played for any of these forms, but the feel changes depending on the tempo. So it is common to have different types of strums and falsetas that feel more comfortable at different tempos.

Ricardo



Alonte -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 10 2009 10:53:16)

"Solea is Slower, Solea por buleria will be faster, but also more steady tempo wise....and of course bulerias fast."

I like that perspective. I will really have to pay more attention to letras. But in essence, is there a strict SPB rule that will help distinguish it more? Aside from the steady rythm and beginning at 1?



Ricardo -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 11 2009 9:15:13)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alonte

But in essence, is there a strict SPB rule that will help distinguish it more? Aside from the steady rythm and beginning at 1?


Unfortunately no, and let go of the "always steady starting at 1" idea too, that is a generalization not a rule. You may hear what seems a Solxbul but gets labeled "Solea" and get confused, cuz that is OK too, depending on context.

I was trying to generalize for you but the lines are blurry. Only way to get the concept is to jump in and start learning all the fine details, note for note, until you start to get it. Sorry man, wish it were cut and dry like a 12 bar blues, Sonata Allegro, Fugue, or something. Collect recordings and listen to ONLY things labeled "Solea por Buleria" and maybe it will start to make sense.

Ricardo



mark indigo -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 12 2009 6:23:04)

quote:

let go of the "always steady starting at 1" idea


occasionally a solea falseta will start on 12 - i can only think of 1 off the top of my head, but if only 1 falseta doesn't start on 12 then as Ricardo says it's a generalization not a rule - think of it as a guideline

there have been threads on this before, and i still think it's interesting, one day i'm gonna sit down and combine all the info into one article - and it probably still won't be the definitive guide to Solea Por Bulerias!



Alonte -> RE: Understanding Solea por Buleria (Nov. 17 2009 16:21:18)

Thanks for your opinion guys. I guess I will have to just keep listening until it all sinks in!



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