scales and such.. (Full Version)

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fevictor -> scales and such.. (Oct. 18 2009 14:01:53)

Hi Everybody,

I was wondering if anybody knows of any decent websites that are good for getting to know different scales and the fret board in general. There are no guitar teachers where I live and I have looked at a lot of sites but some are a bit confusing... I really want to learn more guitar skills this year and get to know different chords and scales but its pretty hard here.

Thanks in advance,

Vic



ToddK -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 18 2009 14:49:28)

Yeah, there are BILLIONS of scales, HOWEVER, i really believe you dont need to know all of them, or even close to half of them.

All you really need to know is=

Major scale

Minor scale (if you know a major scale, you already know the minor scale[:D] )

Melodic minor ( which is just a major scale with a minor 3rd)

Harmonic minor

Along with a basic understanding of the mode system. (see below!)

Understanding the major scale really intimately is what you should initially concentrate on. From there, the rest of the scales just change, add, or subtract scale tones of that initial major scale.

When begining to learn how the modes work, make sure you understand your major scales and know them cold.
The concept of the modes is simply to offset a scale by 1 or more intervals.

For instance, say you have a C major scale.

It goes CDEFGABC (ionian mode)

So the second mode will start (and end) from the second note of that scale= the D.

So it will simply go = DEFGABCD

Take these things slowly and thoroughly. If you try to take in too much too fast, you will get confused, and end up with lots of holes in your perspective.

The reality is, interval/music theory really isnt as complex and intimidating as many make it out to be.
The key is learning it slowly, and understanding each rudimentary concept thoroughly before you move on.
Many people jump into advanced modal jazz improvisation in the first week[8D][8D] and these people are most of the reason everybody thinks music theory is like Nuclear Physics.
Its not. Its 3rd grade math.

Good luck!
TK



fevictor -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 18 2009 15:48:34)

Great information Todd - thats what I really wanted to know. Thanks a lot. Now I can do my own search and concentrate on just those scales. I spent some time on Paint pasting the major scales and here they are...i hope that they will be usefull for any other musically challenged amigos here. I will post more as soon as I paste them all!

All the best,

Vic



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ToddK -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 18 2009 16:03:50)

I would advise visualizing just one major scale pattern, and then simply
moving it up or down one fret, 2 frets etc....

You dont need to think of them as seperate entities.



fevictor -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 18 2009 16:24:02)

Well for the moment all I see are a bunch of dots everywhere! Im going wait and get home and grab the guitar in order to try to make sense of this. Ive already pasted the minor scales and here they are...and thanks again Todd.



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at_leo_87 -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 18 2009 16:43:16)

it's going to take a long time to memorize those dots!

why not just learn what makes up a major scale? you'll have to eventually learn anyways.

whole step = 2 notes/frets up
half step = 1 note/fret up

starting note - whole step - whole - half - whole - whole - whole - half
c d e f g a b c

(remember, e to f and b to c are a half step apart)

apply that to any note you want and you get the major scale for that note.

there's better ways to explain it, i'm sure, but i hope that helps.



ToddK -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 18 2009 17:19:45)

You're right Leo, but unfortunatly the guitar presents a problem
when moving from string to string.
Generally, except for G to B string, you're jumping up a 4th interval.

So in the begining, it might be better to concentrate on memorizing
the visual shapes.

But i definately agree, one should know the scale formulas by whole and half steps.
If only the guitar fingerboard were laid out like a piano. SO much easier.



fevictor -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 18 2009 17:30:20)

Or maybe I should just learn to play flamenco on the piano[:D]

Although it may make rasgeos a bit tricky!



kovachian -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 19 2009 6:35:23)

You don't need to memorize all of those dots, only the small handful of notes in the scale. Once you know the fingering pattern for a particular scale then you can move that pattern anywhere on the fretboard, and that in turn helps with visualizing different inversions - that's why there's so many dots. It looks daunting but it's really not.



Chiste de Gales -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 19 2009 9:19:40)

Make note, the official melodic minor is different depending on if the scale is
moving up or down.
If it is moving up, it is like a major scale with a minor 3rd.
If it is moving down, it is natural minor.

Im speaking academically as I learned in music school, not from real-world use in flamenco.



ToddK -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 19 2009 10:19:28)

quote:

Make note, the official melodic minor is different depending on if the scale is
moving up or down.


In flamenco and Jazz, it is ascending and descending the same way.

Only in classical music is it different when descending. (natural minor)



Ricardo -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 19 2009 15:55:45)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chiste de Gales

Make note, the official melodic minor is different depending on if the scale is
moving up or down.
If it is moving up, it is like a major scale with a minor 3rd.
If it is moving down, it is natural minor.

Im speaking academically as I learned in music school, not from real-world use in flamenco.


A natural minor scale is what it is up or down. Same goes for a MELODIC minor scale or harmonic minor scale. Up or down, or with skipped intervals or diatonic sequences. The concept of melodic minor only goes ASCENDING direction, never descending, is based on how the scale is used in certain classical pieces. (Not sure why it is so often confused that the scale it'self changes depending on it's direction.) Regardless, the descending natural minor scale is just what it is, natural minor and has not much to do with melodic minor anything.

Do differentiate, some jazz players use the term "jazz minor" to describe the melodic minor, and it's modes have even fancier names.



Wannabee -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 19 2009 19:01:49)

This is what helped me; learn the 5 positions of the major scale and then just shift them up or down the neck to change keys.

http://www.yellowguitarbooks.com/fretboard-diagrams/Major%20Scale.pdf

The examples shown are the key of G major, so to change to A major (for example) just shift each pattern up 2 frets (towards the sound hole).

You can use a similar approach to learn the minor scales.

Cheers



HemeolaMan -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 19 2009 19:21:00)

whatever you do, use a metronome.

Either that or get some insipid, ridiculous and annoying techno music and use the scales over it. This is what I do to groove sometimes when i feel like torturing myself

other than that... metronome metronome metronome. never without a metronome.



minordjango -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 19 2009 21:35:44)

quote:

whatever you do, use a metronome.

Either that or get some insipid, ridiculous and annoying techno music and use the scales over it. This is what I do to groove sometimes when i feel like torturing myself

other than that... metronome metronome metronome. never without a metronome.


YES YES asi i didnt !!

bt another thing usem them in a msical context if ya learning the modes se some jazz progression (band in a box) and drill them so uou can here them in tghe grand scheme of things.

take it slowly and enjoy the new sounds , sing them as u play.



fevictor -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 20 2009 12:39:43)

This thread has started to go way over my head, but thanks wannabee for that link. Ill print it off and have a go...with a metronome! I also found a "musician" where I live and on Thursday I'm going to have a "lesson" with him and I hope to learn "learn" something...if not, Ill jest keep using "quotation marks" and being sarcastic [:)].

Vic



Strumit -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 20 2009 19:23:18)

Hi,

I'd like to ask what the difference is between a modality and a key? (my music theory is bad)

I know how to spell and transpose chords in different keys, but that's about it



Ricardo -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 22 2009 7:36:37)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Strumit

Hi,

I'd like to ask what the difference is between a modality and a key? (my music theory is bad)

I know how to spell and transpose chords in different keys, but that's about it


A key would mean you can change scales and such, have accidentals, but you always return home to major or minor tonic. Also a song or piece in a certain key will have a TONAL chord progression that eventually goes V-I or V-i. (In the case of flamenco I personally would argue you could have a "phrygian" key with accidentals changing just like the minor key, but you have II-I instead of V-I).

A modality will generally stick to ONE scale, and you won't have a chord progression. You will only have a drone, a single chord underneath, or at MOST a chord vamp (usually two chords back and forth, but you can have more). For example, Oye como Va by Santana is like a Dorian vamp (Am, D7), not a song in a key. Or Michael Jackson's beat it is E aeolian, not key of E minor (chords are only Em, D, C. No B7 which would make the tune in the KEY of Eminor).

Hope that helps.

Ricardo



sig -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 22 2009 8:06:00)

Check out this web site. Great lessons!! www.Zentao.com He offers a great selection of free theory lessons. They really were helpful...



mark indigo -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 22 2009 14:41:02)

quote:

The concept of melodic minor only goes ASCENDING direction, never descending, is based on how the scale is used in certain classical pieces. (Not sure why it is so often confused that the scale it'self changes depending on it's direction.)


i think this has to do with the way classical harmony evolved from church modes....

the ionian mode was harmonised to make a major scale. The 7th note of the scale rising to the octave/1st note of the scale (B-C in C maj), harmonised with dominant (V) chord moving to tonic (I) chord (ie. note of B in G7 chord rising to note of C in C chord)

to get the same rising semi tone effect in the chords with a minor scale (ie. to have the same dominant 7th chord to tonic chord perfect cadence), the aeolian mode has to have the 7th note sharpened. So A aeolian mode has it's 7th note of G sharpened and becomes A harmonic minor (ie. the scale now fits the desired harmony, E7 chord to A minor chord).

problem with this was a jump of 3 semitones from F to G#, which they didn't like to sing, so they decided to sharp the F too on the way up, so 2 jumps of a tone each from E to F# and F# to G#.... but for some reason they didn't like it on the way down so they naturalised the F and G (ie reverted back to natural minor)

example of this is Bach, the Bourree from lute suite in E minor BWV996, 2nd bar, C# and D# on the way up, and D natural and C natural on the way down

i don't know the history of jazz players using it same way sharp up and down, but i guess paco got it from mclaughlin et al so it's in flamenco the jazz way



Wannabee -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 22 2009 20:51:18)

l
quote:

Hi,

I'd like to ask what the difference is between a modality and a key? (my music theory is bad)

I know how to spell and transpose chords in different keys, but that's about it


The simplest way to think about it is....

For example: the key of C major has no sharps or flats. If you play from C to C you get the major scale (ionian mode), but if you play the same notes but start and end on D you will get the dorian mode.

Each Major scale can produce 7 modes. (depending where you start or finish)

So a piece of music might be written in the Key of C (no sharps or flats) but actually be a modal piece in dorian.

I hope this makes sense to you.



HolyEvil -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 22 2009 23:56:29)

quote:



For example: the key of C major has no sharps or flats. If you play from C to C you get the major scale (ionian mode), but if you play the same notes but start and end on D you will get the dorian mode.



hi there, so this dorian mode is it a C dorian or D dorian?



beno -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 23 2009 0:47:37)

that's D dorian = D shows the starting note of the scale, and the 'dorian' refers to it's role - the second degree of the c major(ionian) scale.



asisetoca -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 25 2009 1:41:44)

Check out this site for all chords/scales and all inversions of every chord in every position and it also plays anything your focus in on back to you and allows you to create your own chords and scales etc

http://www.chordbook.com/guitarchords.php



minordjango -> RE: scales and such.. (Oct. 25 2009 6:02:57)

an alternative long term approach.

is learning the theory and write yr on chord scale books.

i mean learn some harmony and theory, and if you can understand the construction you can really understand the fretboard.

a great book that helps is ralph denver guitar handbook.

players here like Jason and toddk really understand this concept --- todd shows it in his abillity to play all styles, and jason all alludes to it in analysis of flamenco .

if one can visualize say..........D dorian positions and chords (build from the mode of D Dorian then you open the doors for more compositional ideas and harmonic freedom.
just a thought



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