Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Full Version)

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Djreisat -> Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 5 2009 6:09:30)

Was wondering what some others' feelings on this may be. Personally, I prefer extra hard Conde classical strings or D'addario Pro Arte classicals. Any thoughts?



kovachian -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 5 2009 6:29:05)

I don't know if this is entirely on topic but I'm not convinced that there's any difference between classical and flamenco strings, regardless of what advertising departments would like us to believe.



gj Michelob -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 5 2009 7:06:56)

quote:

I'm not convinced that there's any difference between classical and flamenco strings


Agreed. And this lack of "any" difference between the two breeds is remarkably obvious when using higher tensions.

If there exist any difference is perhaps in the lighter tension; in this category, strings such as Luthier (supreme 20) or LaBella Elite Flamenco, apparently produce a thinner, brilliant sound and afford a higher degree of flexibility, along with being the “cheapest”, which represent a few of the characteristics many flamencos seem to seek in a string-set. Recently, I switched to Luthier after a few years with D’Addario Composite normal tension. The latter I had used on my Ramirez 1a classical guitar, and ultimately they had served well for both styles.



villain -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 5 2009 7:58:42)

if you want light or ultra-light strings, those only come in the flamenco flavor IIRC. And I think if you want black trebles (which seem to be a different material and a bit thinner...and I like them), i believe those are only on the 'flamenco' strings as well.

I have a set of the d'addario's with the kinda brown colored G string on right now and I like em. but dont know exactly what they are...anyone familiar with them and know what they are called?



gj Michelob -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 5 2009 8:05:00)

quote:

I have a set of the d'addario's with the kinda brown colored G string on right now and I like em. but dont know exactly what they are...anyone familiar with them and know what they are called?


D'Addario Composite



kovachian -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 5 2009 16:44:30)

quote:

And I think if you want black trebles (which seem to be a different material and a bit thinner...and I like them), i believe those are only on the 'flamenco' strings as well.
Carbon trebles are black and a bit thinner, but the few who use those are almost entirely classical players. The black nylon trebles on the other hand, I believe they are used more in flamenco. I've seen a couple examples of black trebles that are packaged as part of a labelled classical set, but I don't remember what they are.



edguerin -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 6 2009 9:13:50)

quote:

I've seen a couple examples of black trebles


La Bella



keith -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 8 2009 5:00:14)

new to this forum as i am somewhat tired of the forum based in santa monica. as to the topic, i have found that what is passed off as flamenco strings are trebles that are stiffer and colored (e.g., hannabach, la bella), or in the case of the older labella purple strings, softer (rectified trebles) and the bass strings tend to be the same as classical. since the 2001 and hannabach flamenco strings can be found in many tensions it seems obvious that the tension of the string is not the primary variable--especially since flamencos will choose anywhere between low and high tension.



gj Michelob -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 8 2009 5:22:02)

Is this my friend Keith?
[before I make a fool of myself by displaying my extreme excitement to have him on board, here].

In the unlikely event that you are not "el" Keith, welocome to the Foro, anyway...[;)]



keith -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 8 2009 8:46:41)

sir gj Michelob--does "the fantastic four" sound like something from the lips of said keith? yep, it is me. after an absence of several years i am back.



gj Michelob -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 8 2009 9:07:42)

quote:

does "the fantastic four" sound like something from the lips of said keith?


yes sir that is the password... best "four' Cejillas (21st Century) I could dream of, and the only ones I really use, made in Chicago by our Keith.

I am really pleased to see you here, Keith. I am trying to make time to listen to the Cante chanllenge entries. That was one contest i really wanted to enter but forfeited because of my index finger surgery. A wonderful contribution by the other -healthier- members, however.



Ricardo -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Oct. 16 2009 8:18:00)

Flamenco strings, like the guitars, are better.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Nov. 9 2009 6:39:44)

There is no such thing as "classical or flamenco strings." While it's true that some strings may feel or be better for flamenco, such designations are meaningless. A string is comprised of certain material and composition, a certain diameter, and a certain tension. All these obviously remain the same whether you put them on a classical guitar or a flamenco guitar. Manufacturers like to say "Flamenco Strings" because it sounds good, and these strings might in fact be better for flamenco, but if they are, it's only because the above mentioned composition, diameter, and tension is better for flamenco. That doesn't make it a "flamenco string." The same string could be used perfectly well on a classical guitar for any individual guitarist who prefers that. By the same logic then, that would make it a "classical string." Though there are plenty of exceptions, most flamenco guitarists agree that a lighter tension string works better for flamenco. But that doesn't make it a "flamenco string," since plenty of classical guitarists also prefer a lighter tension string. It is simply a string that is being used for flamenco.



John O. -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Nov. 9 2009 7:37:19)

Just as with guitars, give all concert guitar strings a chance no matter what the price or label.

I use Hannabach Silver Special Medium for my good guitar, which has a very bright sound. The same strings on my old "vacation guitar", which has a very fat sound, don't only sound horrible but seem to have a much lower, uncontrollable tension than on the other. D'addario Pro Arte works better for the older model.

"Flamenco" or not is completely irrelevant.



Ramon Amira -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Nov. 9 2009 12:05:45)

A note of interest with respect to "flamenco strings." In the old days, gypsy flamenco guitarists in Andalusia, who never had any money, would use fishing line for some of the treble strings. It actually has the same nylon monofilament composition as typical guitar treble strings. They would get them with various diameters and in a long roll, and then just cut off enough of a piece to make a string. Great gypsy ingenuity, and economical too. I've been tempted to try it, but doubt if I'll get around to it.



por medio -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Nov. 16 2009 1:14:07)

Having used countless number of strings - both classical and flamenco - I honestly don't think there is any difference whatsoever.

The notion that the flamenco guitarists are supposed to use lighter tension is dated too I believe.

I think the guitarist's technique will determine the tension he or she uses.

As for me, I use Oasis Carbon GPX high tension for the trebles and Savarez Corum high tension for the basses. They REALLY are a combo made in heaven.



hhmusic -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 24 2017 6:49:08)

For what it's worth, my current favorite 'flamenco' strings are the old Savarez 540 red card 'high/normal' tension, with the unrectified, slightly rough feeling trebles. Which are supposed to be for 'classical' guitars. I've seen a lot of Spanish flamenco pros using these. They seem to impart some color and complexity to a bright instrument. They're also reasonable in price.

Of the specifically 'flamenco' strings, I still prefer the original Hannabach flamenco, with the yellow/gold colored trebles, in medium tension. Some have commented that the medium tension in these feels like hard tension in others, and for the basses, I'd have to agree. They're stiffer. The trebles have normal 'give'. They are louder than most strings.

The tried and true D'addario J45 is still great. Very neutral and reliable. Doesn't add anything to the sound; they allow you to hear the guitar.

At the moment, I'm using only these three types depending on the guitar, and the sound I'm looking for. Savarez 540 for color. Hannabach 820 for power. J45 for neutral.



Cervantes -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 24 2017 19:14:44)

quote:

Savarez 540 red card


I have tried Savarez New Cristal and Alliance, neither are my favorite string.
Are you saying these are better? I am about try D'Addario EJ25B which really are Flamenco strings
[;)]



mark indigo -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 24 2017 19:45:17)

quote:

I am about try D'Addario EJ25B which really are Flamenco strings

would be interesting to see what you make of those - I hated them! Overall wrong tension wrong for my guitars, and also too soft under my right hand and too hard under my left hand (I'm right handed) - I wouldn't have minded if it was the other way around! And what's with the only one tension? Like all flamenco guitars and flamenco guitarists are the same and need the same tension?



kitarist -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 24 2017 19:55:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cervantes

quote:

Savarez 540 red card


I have tried Savarez New Cristal and Alliance, neither are my favorite string.
Are you saying these are better? I am about try D'Addario EJ25B which really are Flamenco strings
[;)]


540r are just normal tension Alliance trebles (i.e. "fluorocarbon") paired with HT basses. If you don't like Alliance trebles, you are not going to like these.

BTW D'Addario EJ25B "flamenco" strings set consists of black-dyed high-tension EJ46 trebles and normal-tension EJ45 basses. That's it.



Cervantes -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 24 2017 19:57:41)

quote:

would be interesting to see what you make of those - I hated them!


Yeah I will let you know. Right now I am using EJ46TT and I did notice they also do feel soft on my right hand which I kind of like. Hoping the EJ25B would be kind of similar but with a little more punch. Hannabach 815LT is another one I have been using and like, for a low tension string they feel higher than D'addario high tension.



mark indigo -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 25 2017 13:26:52)

quote:

BTW D'Addario EJ25B "flamenco" strings set consists of black-dyed high-tension EJ46 trebles and normal-tension EJ45 basses. That's it.


says on the packet they are composites, so the basses will be EJ45C or whatever the serial number for composites is, but different from standard EJ45 anyway.

EDIT: I just checked D'Addario website. The flamenco sets are composite basses. But they don't seem to quite match up exactly to the other strings in the composites "family" according to the "family tension chart".

If you go here:
http://daddario.com/DADProductDetail.Page?ActiveID=3769&productid=247
you see the EJ25B set, and under the tension chart click on "Family Tension Chart"

I checked both "Pro-Arte Nylon Core" and "Pro-Arte Composites" chart and can't find any 1st string with the same diameter and tension as the Flamenco/EJ25 1st string. The clear flamenco (EJ25C) trebles are the same diameter and tension as the black (EJ25B) flamenco trebles, both are different to everything else.

The 2nd and 3rd strings are the same diameter and tension as EJ46 and EJ46C.

If I've read the chart correctly the 4th string in the EJ25B set is the same diameter and a lower tension than the regular EJ43 Pro-Arte low tension set. It's the same tension and a lower diameter than the 4th string in the Pro-Arte Composite EJ45C set.

The EJ25 5th string is the same tension but a higher diameter compared to the EJ45C. It's also the same diameter as the EJ45, but the tension is lower, between EJ43 and EJ45 (ie. between low and normal).

Flamenco 6th string is same tension but thicker than the normal tension composite (EJ45C) set, and same diameter and a shade higher tension than the normal tension pro-arte (EJ46).

So they do seem to be a unique set. I still don't like them. And I tried them twice, with a bunch of other sets in between, different brands and lines, just to make sure. They were still soft and mushy and muddy sounding. But that's a personal opinion relating to my guitars and hands etc.



mark indigo -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 25 2017 13:32:43)

quote:

Right now I am using EJ46TT and I did notice they also do feel soft on my right hand which I kind of like.


I have used EJ46TT quite a bit, since I bought a guitar with them on it, and I liked the sound and feel of the guitar (which is why I bought it!). I quite like them, definitely a lot more than the so-called "flamenco" EJ25B strings.

If kitarist is right about the tension of the EJ25B flamenco set, then you are switching from high tension bass and trebles (EJ46TT) to medium/normal tension basses and high tension trebles (EJ25B).

EDIT: see above post for tension more info.



heyjamesguesswhat -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 25 2017 15:38:17)

I'm also a fiddle player, and this reminds me of the "fiddle strings" rebranding done by certain otherwise reputable string makers on their steel core violin strings. Add five bucks and change the label art an shazam! fiddle strings.



kitarist -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 25 2017 15:46:40)

I think there are mistakes in that chart. Also some random rounding - but the tensions are exactly the same (and yes, the basses in both sets are the same but forgot to say "composites").

For example, string 1: same tension but diameter listed as 0.285 and 0.29 - I bet it is the same diameter in both cases but in the second case someone just rounded it up to two significant digits in one case and did not round it in the other. Or, even more likely, they used to report to two significant digits after the decimal point, so 0.29, but the flamenco set is newer so someone measured it again, perhaps, and they now report to three s.digits. Then someone copied the older measurements from a chart for the EJ46/C and wrote it as 0.290 to conform to the new apparent format.

For the bass strings, there are some transcription errors/typos I think - for example according to that family chart the EJ45C D string is the thickest of the bass strings and all three bass strings are thinner than the g-string. Really? Also the tension increases from D to A to E and is identical to that of the D-A-E strings of the "flamenco" set, but the diameter goes 38-28-35 which makes no sense physically unless they are all of different density materials (really?) yet calibrated to match exactly the tension of the flamenco basses (whose diameter makes physical sense with tension increase) to three significant digits after the decimal point. Really? :-)

Another example - look at this regarding the total tension listed:



I created an excel sheet some time ago to track and compare strings (and calculate implied density based on tension and diameter (and pitch), also calculate implied tension at different scale lengths). It was meant to become a comprehensive "database" eventually, but it is so hard to come by data for a lot of string manufacturers - including reference scale length.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px



Schieper -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 26 2017 11:13:01)

For me the EJ45 just did not work. Took them of after 3 weeks. Just as the Hannabach flamenco HT. The Corum where okay-ish and I already set my mind that it was just the quality of the guitar. No I have the Savarezz Tomatito and they actually work very well for me.

For me the thing was that the other strings had to much sustain which resulted in mushy raquados. (please accept I am a total amateur :-)). Now, I moved my playing position a bit more towards the bridge and that works very well with the strings. The fact that I have a Negra also might influence the string selection a lot.

These black carbon trebles did not do it for me. To blant, and exact in tone. no sustain at all.

I kept a log book on all strings I used and stockpiled and every recommended set I could get so will go through all of them the coming months-years.

But I was surprised to "learn" how much difference it makes to align different strings with different guitars and different playing styles.



Ricardo -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 26 2017 16:22:36)

quote:

For me the thing was that the other strings had to much sustain ....
These black carbon trebles did not do it for me. To blant, and exact in tone. no sustain at all....


While you might find a best fit for a certain guitar, there is no such thing as "goldilocks" perfect strings. [:D]



Richard Jernigan -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 26 2017 17:05:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

While you might find a best fit for a certain guitar, there is no such thing as "goldilocks" perfect strings. [:D]


Yep. Nor is there a ¨best¨guitar, for that matter. My favorite may not be the favorite of someone else.

RNJ



BarkellWH -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 26 2017 18:45:22)

quote:

quote: ORIGINAL: Ricardo While you might find a best fit for a certain guitar, there is no such thing as "goldilocks" perfect strings.

Yep. Nor is there a ¨best¨guitar, for that matter. My favorite may not be the favorite of someone else.


The wise words above hold equally true for flamenco guitarists, the "herd mentality" and past references to "God" notwithstanding.

Bill



SephardRick -> RE: Classical Strings vs Flamenco Strings (Jul. 26 2017 19:11:27)

quote:

I prefer extra hard Conde classical strings or D'addario Pro Arte classicals


To be clear, are you asking for opinions on these two "Classical" strings? For Flamenco techniques I don't use hard tension strings. But, I do like the Pro Arte EJ-45 (normal tension) Bass sets and Conde 860 (light tension) Trebles.



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