***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Full Version)

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at_leo_87 -> ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 1:29:21)

PLEASE REFRAIN from commenting until ALL the judges have given their scores and remarks.


Here are the submissions for the Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge!


JUDGES:
ToddK
Deteresa1
Matic
Duende
XirdneH_imij
Edgar884


PLEASE REFRAIN from commenting until ALL the judges have given their scores and remarks.




at_leo_87 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 1:34:55)

1/5
Hyperion




at_leo_87 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 1:36:49)

2/5
Cygnus




at_leo_87 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 1:38:31)

3/5
Phobos




at_leo_87 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 1:40:05)

4/5
Betelgeuse




at_leo_87 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 1:41:42)

5/5
Arcturus




at_leo_87 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 1:47:15)

That's all of them. Judges, you may begin!




xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 7:18:53)

this will be very difficult to judge, already listened 3 times to all of them, taking notes, but i'll listen more :)




Andy Culpepper -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 7:47:21)

quote:

this will be very difficult to judge, already listened 3 times to all of them, taking notes, but i'll listen more :)


same here[;)]




Matic -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 7:56:43)

will do it tomorrow evening, still have an exam to pass by then![;)]




duende -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 8:25:18)

Arcturus

Timeing 4

Technique 5

Aire 4

The tempo is a bit to fast makning the timeing stuffer
Witch makes the aire stuffer

Betelgeuse

Timeing 4

Technique 4

Aire 5

The tempo is a bit to fast makning the timeing stuffer
Witch makes the aire stuffer even though i thought
It had some aire so its not only in the technique


Cygnus

Timeing 7

Technique 7

Aire 7

Dig in more. You nead a more ful and clear tone
Witch goes for all contenders


Hyperion

Timeing 7

Technique 5

Aire 5

Read the above ;-))

Phobos

Timeing 7

Technique 4

Aire 8


Read cygnus comment

Well done everyone!











Andy Culpepper -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 12:03:17)

OK...this was hard, everyone gave it a great shot and there were very few major compas issues or anything like that...but after MANY listens, a clear favorite emerged for me.

For everyone: Good tone, good ligados, RASGUEADOS NEED WORK [8D] especially the tresillo. But honestly great work and all of you won in that you got through the piece at a decent speed.

Note: I'm grading these against a PERFECT version, not each other. Ramzi probably would have gotten about a 28[:D]


1. Hyperion

Technique: 6
Groove: 6
Aire: 5

Total: 17

Your file came up in my iTunes with the genre "thrash metal" [:D] Funny. You did a nice job, but overall it needs more punch, and stronger rasgueados, especially the tresillo at the end. Tempo was a little sloppy but decent groove.


2. Cygnus

Technique: 7
Groove: 8
Aire: 8

Total: 23

My favorite. Good strong playing and tone, good ami rasgueados but again the tresillo needs work. This one grooved for me. Good job!


3. Phobos

Technique: 5
Groove: 6
Aire: 5

Total: 16

I liked your tone, but you lost technique points for a very choppy and harsh rasgueado, especially on the low strings, and the ligado was a little weak. Pretty good tresillo though!


4. Betelgeuse

Technique: 5
Groove: 4
Aire: 6

Total: 15

A lot of rushed notes detracted from the groove, in the beginning between chord changes and in the thumb part. Technique...left hand fingerings sounded hard, weak ligado and not enough punch on the alzapua. Good tone overall though.


5. Arcturus

Technique: 5
Groove: 4
Aire: 5

Total: 14

Practice your ami rasgueado landing on the beat. The timing was off in the beginning. You missed a chord change at :42. There was a compas issue at :49, the A string ligado needs to come a beat earlier. Good alzapua sound!




xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 1 2009 17:11:34)

This was very difficult to judge, the level and the issues are similar. You all need to practice rasgueados and precision. The compás is fine everywhere, but you'll need to be much tighter. Recording yourselves helps enormously!
Well done all of you!



Arcturus 17 points

You definitely need more practice with the rasgueados, but I found it very positive that you attempted and pulled off the amii rasgueado perfectly. The backing obviously helped you stay in compás. I liked your alzapúa.


Betelgeuse 20 points

It sounds like a well rehearsed piece played by a nervous guitarist. Your alzapúa needs to be much cleaner. The finishing triplets sounded fine, they'll need to be cleaner, but credit for trying!


Cygnus 22 points

Overall this seems to be the best recording. The guitar being out of tune hurt a bit. The problem here is precision, you were behind the beat too often. It was also clear that some parts you played with confidence and you were just trying to get through others, you'll need to work in being more even in that regard.


Hyperion 18 points

This was a balanced performance but you'll need to work on both technique and compás in the future. The lack of a backing track helps hide the fact that the compás is not good, maybe if you used one it would've helped.


Phobos 21 points

Your rasgueados sound weird! Again, balance is the key, listen to Ramzi's recording and watch his hands. I felt you were rushing at places, again the backing track would've helped.




Matic -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 2 2009 12:29:00)

Arcturus

timing/compas 6
technique 6
aire 6
TOTAL:18

Your timing is not bad. But you're not very confident either. Sometimes it feels like you're a bit behind the beat, that you're trying to catch it. As Ricardo says, don't you follow the palmas, let palmas follow you (or something like that...). Study that interesting compas variation around 0:42 more, do it as El Rumbero does it, it's a nice lick you can often use (don't do it too often though because it's very effective...) to enrich your compas strumming. Try as many different variations, practice it with metronome, first very slow, KNOW the rhythm, always have fun playing with your best ticking friend... GROOVE! the metronome can be the grooviest percussion instrument! ;) And try to SING everything you play. If you can sing it, you can play it. I've been hearing those advice from many different top notch players all the time and I can also say from my experience - it's true!
Regarding the sound: As Jason points out, the rasgueos are the most important technique in flamenco. That's so true. Practice rasgueos hard. And a very important thing: dig into that guitar more!! Dynamics are very important...
You are doing really well, keep it up!



Betelgeuse

timing/compas 6
technique 5
aire 4
TOTAL: 15

Let the bass notes ring in the arpegio part... EVERY note is important! You have to brush your back teeth as well even though they don't stand out the same as the incisors... Give the notes the attention they deserve! :D Practice slow with a metronome. Practice slow with a metronome. Practice slow with a metronome.
As with, Arcturus, not a bad timing. Seems like you want to be confident and dig in but don't yet have the technique to express what you desire. It will come! Flamenco guitar isn't an easy instrument to play. I know, I'm in the same position as you.
I can hear you have a nice potential. Keep it up!



Cygnus

timing/compas 7
technique 7
aire 7
TOTAL: 21


Well, I'm running out of advice. First, read everything I wrote for your colleagues. ;)
Try to produce the same strong sound with arpegios as you can with your thumb! When you practice, exaggerate, really dig in, play as loud as possible (and accurate at the same time) ... know how to play loud and you will be better at playing soft. I was oleing at 1:14, yeah man, beat it!
Vary the compas patterns, learn those Ramzi plays, listen to the cante cds, play what they play. You are able to!!
Practice hard and you will be great!



Hyperion

timing/compas 7
technique 6
aire 6
TOTAL: 19


Hey. When I first listened to your attempt I thought, he's got a good rhythm considering he has no loop or metronome! But I hear you have it really silent (on headphones?)... Anyway, sometimes you are dragging a bit... nothing tragic.
It's obvious you can produce a nice tone if you want. Dig in more! Noone in Spain wants to hear the rasgueos like you played them at the end! ;) Flamenco guitars like it HARD! And so do Flamencos.
Learn that rasgueo pattern at 0:42 (everyone should!!), practice slow, ticktack, sing...
Groove!
You are a fine, capable player.



Phobos

timing/compas 7
technique 6
aire 7
TOTAL: 20



I like your arpegios! Very nice, good tones. I don't like the sound of your rasgueos. It may be a recording but I don't think so. It sounds like you're throwing your fingers at those strings as if they weren't yours (fingers I mean) ;) I like it that you play rasgueos seperating the fingers, trying to get them sound equally strong... all good but at the end it all comes to the sound. If the sound is bad even if you have the rhythm, something is missing.
I like your playing, keep practicing!





To all:

I was hoping to hear a brave attempt on filling that BIG hole in the middle but yes, I guess you all wanted to be faithful to Ramzi's original... I remember not liking that silence when Ramzi first posted his video... I think I even posted an example or two how I would fill it (check the original thread if you want an idea). But I'm not saying it's bad or wrong, maybe more personal taste...

There are a few spots in this tango that are a nice challenge. You shouldn't stop playint it now after you're over with the challenge. Try to perfect it! Still practice it slowly and pay attention to the details. I know, one of the main worries for this challenge was to come through the piece safely... Challenges are stressful and sometimes depressing but you can get great advice and you improve a lot. Anyway, what I was trying to say is that coming throuh the piece safely is a big task and all but you shouldn't forget the other aspets of music when running towards the light at the end of a tunnel. Pay attention to the DETAILS!! Man, noone did that funky rasgueo I mentioned a few times right! Now go and learn it! Another interesting part is that ligado around 1 minute. Practice that! And the thumb part after that can be a very efective passage. You should really play that part like you mean it!

In general, I was pleasantly surprised with your submissions. You are all doing great and I heard nothing that couldn't be improved. It's obvious you are working hard and that you love flamenco. I didn't comment much about the aire. Well, you all know when you hear something that has a real aire, soniquete to it. And THAT is the most important thing in flamenco, never forget this! Si tú no tienes soniquete pa qué te metes...

Congrats to all!

Matic




edgar884 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 2 2009 16:45:27)

Here are my results. I thought most all of you were lacking with the i up a down i down don't even know if but one of you was doing it that way. And most all of you still need lots of work with your rasgs. And no one did an i strum on the 1 beat golpe with the a finger weird, maybe you guys were just being faithful to Ramzi. Also I think most of you are missing that heavy up beat so important to hit the first I stroke on the up beat.
So my highest score will be 25. I thought all of you sounded great and thanks for letting me be a part of it.

Hyperion. 19

great job, thought you were holding back to much when everything you need is right in your finger tips. Your light little rasgs in the beginning are what you should be doing on the main compas but harder with more strength. And when you start the main compas it sounds like you stop using I up a down I down all together.
I'm not sure totally what rasg your using but the best ones are in the beginning where you are relaxed. Good thumb work too and the rasgs at the end were tight but needed to be louder.

Cygnus. 25

My favorite, you did so well. You had the best main compas out of everybody.
Maybe just let your i finger relax a little on the upstrokes. You had the best compas and tresillos in my oppinion. Yours had a great groove to it. I would just say work on the rasgs more like everyone else, but hats of to you, I felt your rendition.

Phobos, 16

I thought you had a great old school sound especially with some of your rasgs even though your i up a down i down was lacking as well. You seemed to have the best intro and a weird sound on the main compas but probably just your recording. You might be playing to close to the bridge.
Sounds like you are using some kinda amii variation instead of i up a down i down for the main compas.

Betelgeuse. 15

Sounds like your nails are a little long like they are catching on the strings might want to try filing them a little different. your thumb work was pretty good but your left hand is having a hard time keeping up try some chromatic exercises for the left hand. Tangos pattern should be golpe then i up a down i down i up a down i down i up i down i up. I think all of you but Cygnus are missing this.

Arcturus. 14

pretty good main compas and some nice little things happening in there but need to clean up your thumb and rasgs. Your intro was good but your a little out of tune, just so you know. Your rasgs need the most work but it's weird cause your main compas wasn't to bad at all. Your left hand might need some work, sounds a little behind.

I wanted to try and help so didn't sugar coat anything and just tried to be helpful been listening for hours now and really enjoyed all of the entries none of you sucked and I am so proud of you all.




at_leo_87 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 4 2009 22:19:04)

RESULTS


Cygnus / Acziraky - 112

Betelgeuse / Ailsa - 78

Arcturus / Cathulu - 76

Phobos / Louis_B - 92

Hyperion / Domzo - 90

***CONGRATULATIONS TO THE BEGINNER'S CHALLENGE WINNER, ACZIRAKY!!!***




Louis_B -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 1:46:46)

Congratulations to Acziraky!

Congratulations also to all of the other participants. I think we should all be proud of our contributions and hope it encourages more participants in future.

Thanks to the judges for their time and the advice/criticism.

Last, but not least, many thanks to Ailsa and Anthony for organising the challenge so well.

I'm really looking forward to the next challenge.

[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]Louis_B[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]




Ailsa -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 2:18:44)

quote:

many thanks to Ailsa and Anthony for organising the challenge so well.


Thanks Louis, though I feel bad we weren't able to contact ToddK, as I know we all would have valued his comments. But never mind, we have a clear winner anyway, and Todd can still give comments when he has time.

@ Acziraky: Congratulations on winning! Although you've been a Foro member for a while you don't post very often. Now we know how well you play I hope you'll post more!

@ Louis: How fantastic that you can play so well when so young. I was 51 before I even picked up a guitar, so I'm envious.

@ Dominic: Well done man!! We were joint 4th last time, but you have left me well behind this time.

@ Cathulu: Well we may have been last in this challenge, but we have still done well. Gimme a hug man! [:D][:D]

Thanks to all the judges and to Anthony - it's always a pleasure to work with him.




Ailsa -> [Deleted] (Sep. 5 2009 2:20:20)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Sep. 5 2009 2:20:41




Matic -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 2:44:01)

Ole everyone! Congrats to the Winner Acziraky..[:)]
This was a fun challenge.




mrMagenta -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 3:36:33)

Ole! It was fun to follow this one. I tried playing it myself, even though it seems simple at first it takes quite some effort to make it work. Well done everyone! Great Judging and nice material from Ramzi.




cathulu -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 12:07:58)

Thank you judges and organizers! Without your efforts and wonderful responses and comments this would be a lame duck exercise. And of course congrats to the very deserving winner!

So I am the lanterne rouge again! That is a distinction in itself and one I shall receive proudly. Ailsa, as Lanterne Rouge is usually fought very hard over, I cannot share it with you. I earned it fair and square! [:D]

I take heart that my technique is improving and I had some nice bits around the muffed parts. I will work even harder on my rasqueos and my tresillos. And I think I should work with a metronome and record myself with a critical ear.

Now, I am disappointed that some of my fellow competitors did not record to a compas track or metronome. I thought that was a rule but then I couldn't find anything definitive so that was in my head. It is easier to hear when someone is behind the beat to compas, and makes recording a little bit harder as you have to start at the right time and finish at the right time. And it can be more exhausting doing multiple tries to compas because it is one more thing to think about. Nevertheless, I think everyone sounded great and most of us could fit under the same blanket - ok, make it king sized then!

I think all challenges should work to compas or metronome track - otherwise DQ!

I can't wait for the next challenge!




domzo -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 12:27:45)

Yes, big congratulations to all, especially Acziraky for a landslide victory!! Otherwise I think there wasn't much to choose between the other entries, so well done everyone!

Many many thanks to the judges - your comments are invaluable and your efforts much appreciated. It's uncanny how you pick up on what I know are my weak spots (even if I try to deny them to myself!)

To respond to Cathulu's comment:

quote:

Now, I am disappointed that some of my fellow competitors did not record to a compas track or metronome. I thought that was a rule but then I couldn't find anything definitive so that was in my head. It is easier to hear when someone is behind the beat to compas, and makes recording a little bit harder as you have to start at the right time and finish at the right time. And it can be more exhausting doing multiple tries to compas because it is one more thing to think about.

I think all challenges should work to compas or metronome track - otherwise DQ!


Being one of the fellows in question... [:D] I wasn't aware there was any rule either way. As it happens I did record to a compas track playing through my headphones (true Ramzi style!) but I muted the compas track in Audacity when I created the mp3 file as I felt it made it harder to hear the guitar playing (coupled with the fact I had a lot of hiss on my recording). So it was just personal preference on my part. If you think it's really unfair we should consider changing it for future challenges?


Nearly forgot - thanks to Ramzi!

[edit:]
Did forget - thanks to Ailsa & Anthony [:)]




at_leo_87 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 13:05:06)

ole ole! thanks to ailsa for having the drive to start and organize these challenges. thanks to ramzi for the very cool piece. i play it regularly. thanks to the judges for taking the time to do this. you guys gave some awesome tips. even just as a spectator, i learned something for myself from reading the comments, especially that singing tip. and finally, thanks to the challengers who participated! i hope all of you will participate in the next challenge. it'll be really cool to see your progress.

about the backing track, i agree, maybe it should be a rule for reasons pointed out by chris above.

domzo, does audacity have noise/hiss reduction?




Louis_B -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 13:07:05)

I also recorded without a compas track or metronome[:D] because there was not a rule to do so.

There was also no rule for the previous solea challenge and none of the participants used a compas track or metronome .

I actually find it easier to keep in time if I use a compas track or metronome so I made my entry more challenging for me!

Please don't be too disappointed Cathulu[:)]

Sorry, I also forgot to thank Ramzi


[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]Louis_B[sm=Smiley Guitar.gif]




domzo -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 13:10:01)

quote:


domzo, does audacity have noise/hiss reduction?


Yes, it does, but it wasn't doing a particularly good job - I think the signal from my microphone is weak to start with so further processing it wasn't helping!




r0bbie -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 13:52:15)

Congratulations to all participants and most of all to Acziraky.

Also, I want to congratulate Cathulu for being last for the last time. Next challenge Ill take over this place!

Respect to all who entered this competition.
Rob.




Ailsa -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 5 2009 13:54:17)

quote:

I think all challenges should work to compas or metronome track


Like you that was a rule in my head, which I didn't add to the top of the thread! I agree, and this was the first time I recorded myself with a compas track and I learnt a lot from doing so.

Louis you are right it wasn't a rule for the Solea, but I think Solea is a bit different - it can be more elastic, so I think that was the right rule for that palo. But we are learning and tightening up on the rules each time we do a challenge.




acziraky -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 6 2009 7:19:52)

Thanks to everyone involved in this challenge for giving me this great honour! Thanks to Ailsa and Anthony for organizing. And thanks to the Judges for your useful comments. I never thought that I had a chance at winning, I have improved very much in the last few months both learning this piece and others. This was the first piece I could actually play in compas.

xirdneH_imiJ was right when he said that I was confident with some parts and seemed to be just hanging on with others. The first chord change in the intro (3rd bar) sill plagues me and I still miss it more often than not.

As a first time recorder I never imagined how frustrating it could be. My submission (which is still far from perfect) took me about 5 hours, spread out over two days. I might have lost a considerable amount of hair in the process...

Ailsa - I know I don't post very often, but I'm always watching. Will try to post more in the future

Thanks again!




edgar884 -> RE: ***Beginner's Summer Tangos Challenge Entries*** (Sep. 6 2009 9:25:16)

Congrats man great job.[:D][:D]




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