Please Read (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
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Message

zata -> Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 13:46:41)

I see no need for another long string of outrage...making these things known is an end in itself...and it might even be bad form to post the following which is essentially OT, but people like this leave few options. In any case it does actually involve everyone here since you are all being called "newbies":


> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: bigbilljohnson2 [mailto:BigBillJohnson@hotmail.com]
> Enviado el: viernes, 13 de agosto de 2004 15:16
> Para: flamencodisc@yahoogroups.com
> Asunto: [flamencodisc] banned from foroflamenco because of Zata's lies
>
>
> I've been away on business for a while and now I'm back and I've
> been banned from foroflamenco because that liar Zata told the
> administrator that I had written her threatening e-mails. I did no
> such thing. In fact she wrote me! Not the other way around. It
> looks like her defense for calling attention to her lies is to tell
> bigger and bigger lies. Evidently she's too big a coward to face
> you guys though. She'd rather lavish in the attention from her
> flamenca newbies.
>



Escribano -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 14:03:19)

I have changed the title of this thread as it is visible to Guests.

Umm, I was trying to protect Estela from more threatening behaviour.

quote:

Dear William,
Thanks for your registration to foro flamenco. A bigbilljohnson@hotmail.com
recently sent a rather nasty and threatening email to a good friend of ours.

As your email address is so similar, I am inclined to believe you are the
same person and may continue to harass our friend or other members.

So, I cannot approve your registration.

Now, if I have got this all wrong, please accept my apologies and help us
clear this up.

Regards,
Simon,
Foro flamenco admin


His answer only just came in; it is in a similar vein to the flamencodisc post. You guys want him kept out? It's your forum, I am just the doorman.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 14:56:37)

If he promises to be civil, I don't mind him coming in as long as we keep him on a short leash.



zata -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 15:19:41)

As I just wrote Simon privately, I've received many threatening messages over the years, including a couple of death threats, both publicly and privately, from flamencodisc, which is why I no longer post there. The best defense I know is making these things public domain.

I don't know if there's any way to prove the message from BigBill that I posted is authentic...if there isn't, I should possibly not have posted it at all. But what's the alternative?

I don't think *individuals* should be banned, only certain types of messages. Banning an individual gives him or her the perfect pretext to play the victim. Cross-post¡ng to other forums is forbidden in most groups and might be just cause for banishment if members agreed.

The bottom line in any case is Simon knows best.

Estela 'Zata'



Jamey -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 15:28:19)

I've lurked on flamencodisc for a long time (I simply don't have the knowledge base to contribute anything useful there so I observe) and there's a number of individuals that could be the problem. That discussion list is poison, full of self absorbtion and wrought with veiled arrogance disguised as feigned self depreciation, all in order to make overly opinionated statements (as I'm doing now) or to justify taking shots at someone. There IS without a doubt periodic brilliance on that list, but there's just too much pointless caustic rantings and tangents to wade through by people who need to have their teeth introduced to the back of their head. Not everybody, just a select few who spoil it. Just way too many arrows flying over there.

The Temple list....well now, there was a whole show in it's own right......
...people take themselves way too seriously.

************

Uh, hmmmm....the problem with the internet is that nobody can tell that I'm joking.
consider my message above as a "tongue in cheek" send up/parody of the flamencodisc list. I call it "flamencodisc, a comedy".
[:D][:D]

Newbies or not, people are much nicer to one another here.



Escribano -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 15:36:43)

quote:

Cross-post¡ng to other forums is forbidden in most groups and might be just cause for banishment if members agreed.


Before we vote on that, I can't be bothered to police cross-posting. If the identities are ambiguous, it is almost impossible, may harm the innocent and will take more time than I can afford.

BTW - we get a small increase in registrations whenever we are bad-mouthed on other flamenco or guitar forums.



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 16:58:51)

Hmmm...I wonder if that guy who posted his stupid flamenco advertisement here adn then left got some hits on his website. I wonder if we could post some anti-foroflamenco posts periodically to whip up new members. Paging... The Wanderer!



Jamey -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 18:31:48)

A few postings to flamenco-teacher.com and I think there'd be a flood of guitarists pouring in. Heck, there's a few of the regulars from over there on this forum already. Flamenco-teacher is often more like the kids at the back of the classroom goofing off, but I have to admit I find no fault in that (spoken like a perpetrator).



bailoro2000 -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 21:37:57)

My name is Jim Morris and I am flamencoholic.

I plead guilty to being involved in some pointless headbanging and point-scoring on the disc list, mainly because I hated the depreciating know-all down putting of everyone who didn't bow to their superiority. One day I asked myself if I really needed it. Ten seconds later I unsuscribed quietly and left. I have not had a decent fighting argument since.

I haven't really missed it (well, if it gets too bad I crush a grape) and , having a list of my own, I should have known better in the first place. The one thing these people can't stomach is being ignored. None of us are perfect and civility costs nothing at all. I learned my lesson, blame no-one but myself and put my ego back in the attic. Now, I'm a thoroughly nice guy who never argues with anyone. Well.....most of the time, and only in the best '"possible" taste (((((-; (sitting down and crossing legs in a swinging fashion) My life is now complete. (-;

Saint Jim.



Kate -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 13 2004 22:09:40)

I vote keep Big Bill and the like out of here. That is if we want to keep Estela. I for one could not bear to see every post of Estela's followed by a flurry of put down mails and this sort of nonsense. What lies are they talking about? Oh yeah I get it......Estela is pretending to be knowledgable about flamenco. We all know really she is a housewife living somewhere in Seattle ( or wherever).

There is no getting away from the fact that Big Bill wrote that awful letter to Estela warning her away from this forum. I think they must be missing her at flamenco disc and trying to taunt her back for more of the Spanish Inquisition ;) and sending spies into enemy terrority to root her out.

I really dont want to see this forum go that way, torture and menace every time Estela writes.

There are people out there, though it could be one person with many names, maybe two, perhaps no more than three, who are doing this. I was amazed when I first learnt that people (see above) had written to the people who commission her to write for them and told them she should be sacked. We all know that these people were seen for what they were and these days far from lavishing attention on her, we are lucky if La Zata has time to post as she is so much in demand.

By the way Estela. I saw Antonio Campos for a drink last night and he was delighted about your award, an honour and an acheivement well deserved and says he'll see you at the Biennal. And also we talked with El Niño who sends love, I'm roping him in to do the interview we have on Sat. and also we are planning to record him in Oct. fancy coming down for the fun?

Though its a long way from Seattle ( or wherever) ;)

Kate



zata -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 14 2004 1:44:35)

Kate, thank you for the support...I really need to learn to ignore what goes on at disc, it has nothing to do with the real world and BigBill has shown himself for what he is.

On the flamenco front, I just got back from tonight's contest. I was able to say hello to Victor and Emilio before they had to go on...Victor was *very* nervous, almost in shock...his solea por bulerías showed the butterflies, but for siguiriyas he was great. I hope he realizes people in this part of Andalucía don't go in for those cantes so the reaction was tepid...what really matters is what goes on up in the judges' box. Tomorrow morning the survivors are announced...I do hope they make it!

So nice to hear about Antonio Campos, good singer, better person...he and Victor are so cuddly [&:]....El Niño too...he must be about 80, no? [:D]

Estela 'Zata'



Miguel de Maria -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 14 2004 3:28:01)

Is Victor the young lad I saw sing with Emilo, Kate do you remember?



Kate -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 14 2004 10:19:31)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zata

it has nothing to do with the real world

Estela 'Zata'


Actually I think that is the problem as what they say does affect the real world. You are right to be concerned and to post about what is happening. Flamenco for many on these forums is a hobby and a passion but for you it is also your livlihood and therefore your reputation is tantamount and it is your reputation they are attacking, for whatever jealous petty reasons they have. In the real world if this were being published in newspapaer instead of the internet they would be called to count, for slander, libel, whichever. However here in Cyber land they get away with all kinds of crap, including having imaginary conversations with themselves backing up their own ideas, ie one person several names. The lengths they go to is disturbing, and I suspect they are deeply disturbed and should seek help and I mean that sincerely folks !


Ay poor Victor, with hs nerves, glad he settled down though. And yes I think you're right about El Ni~õ's age, but he dont admit it


Kate



Kate -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 14 2004 16:15:20)

Yes that was EL Niño Charico, now known as Victor 'El Charico' since his father's death with Emilio on guitar.

Kate



Jon Boyes -> RE: Please Read (Aug. 17 2004 8:30:55)

I always feel slightly awkward with this stuff and don't generally vote on whether to ban people or not, but FWIW my suggestion in this case would be to unblock the guys IP so he can post as a guest and then see what he's got to say for himself.

If he conducts himself properly let him join. If he is some kind of violent nutcase, obviously we do not want him to be a member.

Vigorous debate is fine, and challenging Zata or anyone else on their views is absolutely fine too, but if people can't engange in debate without throwing insults or worse, we don't them here.

Jon



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