ia picado

ia picado (Full Version)

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Miguel de Maria -> ia picado (Aug. 1 2003 17:30:13)
This is kind of funny, but I had to take a nail off my m finger and so today, the last day of my classes, I decided to try to use ia for my picado. Surprisingly, it worked pretty well, especially since I never use a rest strokes and have only practiced ia rest strokes perhaps three times in my life. Then, I was practicing a bit and did ia rest stroke scales, and was really surprised by how easy it was. I practice a lot of scales, but always im, like I said I never use a rest strokes at all. After a bit of analysis, I realized that although my m is about .5 inch longer than my i, my i and a are almost exactly the same length. When I play im, the m sticks and I have to make a lot of compromises with it. The i goes right through, the m kind of has to fold a bit, or I end up using a lot more strength to go through. Now when I did the ia, I saw that because both are the same length, I could use the same stroke. The result was a much less complicated motion. I have never heard of a good player using this technique, and I wonder if anyone has any thoughts or experiences with it. My im is already okay, but this way seems much easier and cleaner. Offhand, I can´t think of any good reasons not to develop it if it indeed has the potential to surpass the im.

Escribano -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 1 2003 18:59:28)
Sounds good on the same string, but isn't a longer m better for reaching the next higher string or bending behind i to the next lower string? My next thought is that the brain finds it easier to instruct the next finger in sequence, rather than the next but one? Or is that complete eyewash? Try grabbing a bannister or can of beer [;)], the fingers wrap in sequence from n to i, the reverse of a ras'. Don't they?

Miguel de Maria -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 2 2003 8:50:53)
Hmm, Simon the thing about the natural sequence is pretty interesting. But of course the sequence you described is opposite picado, which is usually im. And then most good guitarists learn, eventually to play mi as well as im... As far as the reaching part, for myself I do very little of that. Most of my vertical movement is done with the forearm. I practiced a bit more with this last night. By no means am I sold on the ia (well if it worked well why wouldn´t other people be using it, right?), but it certainly seems to work quite well. I got up to some impressive speeds last night despite such a minimal amount of practice.

Jon Boyes -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 4 2003 11:03:21)
quote: ORIGINAL: Simon My next thought is that the brain finds it easier to instruct the next finger in sequence, rather than the next but one? Or is that complete eyewash? Try grabbing a bannister or can of beer [;)], the fingers wrap in sequence from n to i, the reverse of a ras'. Don't they? Get that eyewash out Simon [;)] It's true that in certain movements the fingers move sympathetically with ease in sequence if they are flexing in the same direction, such as in your example. But moving adjacent fingers in an opposing motion is a whole different ball game. Try playing scales with M-A for example, or worse still, A-C (yes, the pinky!). You actually tend to find the opposite - that the further apart the fingers are, the more easily you can alternate them. It gets a bit more complicated than that though, when you get into the physiology of it all. I-A is quite a popular method of fingering scales precisely because the fingers are not interdependent, and because, as Michael points out, they are usually more equal in length than I-M. You other point, about the inequality in length between I-M being a possible advantage in string crossing, will only hold true in certain situations. Sometimes you won't have a choice and so that difference inlength can work against you. Cheers.

Miguel de Maria -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 4 2003 16:36:26)
Jon, are you saying that you think ia could work, in general, as well as im for picado scales? I find that my biggest problem is the inequality in length between i and m and the different motion I am forced to somehow sequence. If you have some knowledge of ia being workable, and I mean able to be developed to the very top, please tell me and I'll devote more time to it!

Jon Boyes -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 5 2003 8:31:00)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael W Cho Jon, are you saying that you think ia could work, in general, as well as im for picado scales? Yes, I am saying it could work as well or even better for some people though I'd be pushed to name a flamenco player who uses it (maybe Tom could? he's always observing variations in style). On the classical forums, though, I've heard of players using I-A to play rest stroke scales, which is pretty much indistinguishable from picado. The fact is that whilst M is a stronger finger than A, I and A have good independence, which is the crucial thing. I think though, that it might only work better if you have more of a 'straight finger' picado as opposed to one which uses significant flexion at the middle joint. Control of that joint in A is too closely tied to both C and M (try flexing A by itself at the middle joint and curling it into your hand without moving either M or C to see what I mean.) Going back to the straight finger I-A picado, try this test: With your left hand (non plucking hand, I'm using this on purpose), hold out your hand over a table top making sure your hand and arm are relaxed and your wrist is straight. Now for about 3 or 4 seconds, tap the table top with alternating I-M as fast as you can in a burst of speed, on the tips of your fingers, with slightly curved (but relaxed) fingers. Try the same with I-A. Any difference? For me, I-A feels faster and looser. Bear in mind you are doing this with 'untrained' plucking fingers. I think there are other posibilities to- As I've said before, I use P-I to play scales, as the lutenists do (they use P-M also), and the lute repertoire is full of scary fast scales. The natural independence between P and the fingers is even greater than the other combinations we've mentioned, which is why the thumb is used in combination with the fingers for tricky stuff like arpeggios, tremolo and so on. Its difficult to play an alternating restroke this way, but with a good free stroke technique you can get a rest stroke sound anyway. AS always, 'differents strokes for different folks' - look at Todd. I believe in the early years its good for students to work through the 'formula' approaches, but there comes a point when you start reach your limits as a player with given techniques and you have to experiment with other ways to push your boundaries. Paco De Lucia's forte may be with I-M picado, for you it just could be I-A, or something else. Enough Rambling...[;)]

Miguel de Maria -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 5 2003 19:09:35)
Jon, you are so great! I love your posts, so analytical and full of knowledge! When you say scary fast, do you mean something like sixteenth notes at 150 bpm or so? And have you or have you heard of anyone who got those ip strokes to sound strong? It seems to me that picado, and all techniques, have to do with a control, an independence, and a heightened perception in the fingers, that can enable them to play fast or slow or hard or soft...

gerundino63 -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 6 2003 21:52:55)
hi you all, the beginning of Zapateado en Re is played i a , It is from Sabicas, and later played by Paco Pena greetings Peter

Jon Boyes -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 7 2003 8:24:53)
quote: ORIGINAL: gerundino63 hi you all, the beginning of Zapateado en Re is played i a , It is from Sabicas, and later played by Paco Pena greetings Peter Aha. Now thats interesting, given that both players favour a traditional I-M picado. I'm not familiar with this piece - any ideas why they would go for I-A, Peter?

Jon Boyes -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 7 2003 9:08:34)
quote: ORIGINAL: Michael W Cho Jon, you are so great! I love your posts, so analytical and full of knowledge! Either that or full of BS[;)] Seriously though, there's a lot of material out there in classical guitar literature that goes into great depth in this stuff: Carlevaro, Berg, Shearer are all into micro-analysis of technique, how the fingers work in terms of flexion and relaxation of the joints, angle of attack on the string. Berg's stuff on studying arpeggio motions is especially good - way beyond the material in PumpingNylon, for example. Its not always helpful, a lot of the time you have to feel things for yourself. quote: When you say scary fast, do you mean something like sixteenth notes at 150 bpm or so? And have you or have you heard of anyone who got those ip strokes to sound strong? Yes, I can get IP free stroke to sound strong and so can many players. As for speed, its the fastest scale combination for me. I studied classical guitar for several years with teachers that favoured the normal I-M, but with my last teacher he completely re-modelled my technique and encouraged me to play scale pasages with I-P (he himself preferred P-M). My last teacher was also the most experienced I've had. He organises CG festivals and is in contact with many concert players. He pointed out that many concert players now play their fast scales using P in combination with other fingers. I'll have to post a recording on this so we can discuss it further. I have no idea what my top 'scale speed' is. Cheers.

gerundino63 -> RE: ia picado (Aug. 7 2003 11:21:37)
hi, Jon they use ia in the first part, it is not really a picado, it is not played 'fallen'(if that is good english) more like a two finger tremolo. during the ,tremolo, they do strokes while they keep on playing the i a tremolo. while the hole thing slowes down, it goes smoothly over in a real iami tremolo. I think that's the reason they use i a too. regards Peter

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