Stu -> How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 28 2009 11:17:13)
I love listening to most toque libre but find it hard to play/learn them.
I guess with bulerias or alegrias or something i can practice to a steady tick and know exactly how long each phrase/note lasts in relation to the time signature but dont have that strict timing to help me in toque libre and often feel a little frustrated when learning.
can anyone offer any advice for practicing these styles, or any tips/insights??
thanks Stu
bursche -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 28 2009 11:31:07)
play it slowly. And if you think it's slow enough, go even slowlier. It took me quite a time to notice how much space the notes need to breathe. I'm constantly working on that. You can check out my Taranta upload, it's still quite rushed.
Guest -> [Deleted] (Jun. 28 2009 13:10:03)
[Deleted by Admins]
NormanKliman -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 28 2009 23:07:26)
quote:
but dont have that strict timing to help me in toque libre
Hi Stu,
Then you're free to do things the way you want to! Or maybe I should say there's less risk of you ending up doing things "wrong."
Instead of thinking in whole compases (from 1 to 12), you target passages (from tonic to tonic). You know: B in granaínas, F sharp in Levante, etc.
I'd suggest starting to learn things that "make a lot of sense" to you in order to minimize subsequent correction of phrasing. You might want to forget about entire recordings ("pieces") and just learn different falsetas, which is a better general approach anyway, IMO. Having said that, though, I'll add that you'll benefit greatly from studying some of Paco's recordings from beginning to end: "Fuente y caudal" and "Viva La Unión" (Levante), "Reflejo de la luna" (granaína) and "Doblan campanas" (rondeña). The latter borrows heavily from Montoya and I think it's the easiest of the four.
The "free" styles also offer guitarists an excellent opportunity to start a process that should eventually be the focus of your playing: adapting ideas to your own forms of expression.
ToddK -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 29 2009 1:16:58)
Toque Libre is an interesting proposition. In one way, it gets you off the hook as far as not having to be really locked in with a static palmas rhythm, which takes alot of time and work.
Yet, at the same time, libre can be the truth telller as far as one's ability to really "Phrase". Its more like "conversation". It allows for totall freedom in phrasing, which is great if you can really phrase well, but it can be awful if you're hesitant, or tend to labor, or not sure of how you intend to "say what you want to say" with a phrase or motiff. Its all about real "Guts". Its fairly unique to flamenco, in my opinion. I cant really think of another form that has this type of expression.
I think, without a ton of cante exposure, one cannot truly execute a truly "Flamenco" Libre phrasing. There's a fine line between making it "Flamenco" and it just being, "slow and rambling notes, in the key of whatever". TK
Arash -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 29 2009 2:06:29)
i agree with almost all comments above.
you should also hear to many many recordings with different toque libre pieces. you create a feeling for all of them after a while.
also the timing and duration of the pauses/breaks are important.
there is also some kind of "hidden" rythm there, no compas but you have to keep a certain "speed" for the whole piece,,,and by that, i don't mean that you can't change the speed, play picado parts faster and slower, louder and softer....you have to do that all to create the necessary excitement.......but you have to follow up the "foundation" and the "speed" with which you started the piece.....
So, not everything is "Libre" in Toque Libre....
however, i think by playing toque libre pieces , you can show if you are a "musical" and "gifted" person or not. you have to let the emotions flow, you have to play with your soul, you have to talk with your guitar,,,,,otherwise the result would be dissapointing and soulless
duende -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 29 2009 2:40:31)
quote:
I cant really think of another form that has this type of expression.
There some of this going on in Arabe music. I got some oud players and singers doing some kind of call and response thing in what seems to be "free" form It wouldnt suprise me if the moorish occupation of spain didnt influence the free styles of Flamenco
Maybe Norman knows more about it??
NormanKliman -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 29 2009 4:40:40)
Hi Henrik, thanks for asking!
They say that none of that ancient Andalusian music was ever written in any form, and all we can do today is speculate. I think the experts are still saying that the fandango was developed from Arabic roots. I don't know how they know that, but it's supposed to be true. Also, they say that there's a strong connection between verdiales (abandolaos) and North African music. I'm talking about the more folkloric form of verdiales, with the drum, the screechy violin and the funny hats. Look:
Recordings and other documents indicate that the free styles evolved from rhythmic forms, usually from the abandolao rhythm. The malagueñas and granaínas in Rafael Marín's 1902 flamenco-guitar method are written in 3/4 time, and all the early recordings have some kind of rhythmic accompaniment. The kind of accompaniment that we call toque libre wasn't recorded until the 1920s, approximately, with fandangos being the last singing style to "go libre."
A couple of things to keep in mind regarding old recordings: (1) The period 1915-1922 saw a huge drop in recording activity due to the effects of World War I, and it's precisely after this period that we find the first recordings of cante/toque that can be considered libre. (2) On any given recording, the accompaniment depends entirely on the guitarist who was available for the recording session. Some guitarists might have accompanied cante libre with a strong rhythm because it was all that they knew how to do.
In any case, there are enough early recordings of veteran professionals (Juan Gandulla, Ángel de Baeza, Borrull padre, Ramón Montoya) to conclude that the cantes libres were originally accompanied with rhythm. This can range from a laid-back, plodding kind of ternary context to a straight-up blazing abandolao rhythm.
So, because all the free styles are based on the fandango, it could be said that they all have ancient Arabic roots. But it looks like they didn't become "rhythmless" until the 20th century.
Arash made a very good point about internal rhythm.
Doitsujin -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 29 2009 10:35:18)
I also think to play "libre" is more difficult than most rhytmic stuff.. If you arent 100% save with your composition,..anybody will hear that immediately.. And its a very personal thing.. Very difficult, even a simple granainas.
Ricardo -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 30 2009 2:32:33)
A similar music form is Indian Ragas. Much like flamenco, the "libre" part of performing a Raga is the "alap" and you just give the mode and the overall vibe or "aire" with free style playing. It is supposed to be a big challenge and as you probably know, those sitar players or whatever can go on with it for like 30 min to and hour. Then you got the tabla drums come in or whatever that give the "compas" or Tala, and you do the rhythmic version of the raga. I see some similarity there. And again you need to be a rhythmic master to do the free style convincingly, you can't just fake through it and noodle.
I think even with free form you need to work on phrases rhythmically until your fingers and body feel each passage in time. Even if it means imposing some weird meter to repeat a section over and over. After you add up the whole falseta or piece or whatever, and are fluid, THEN you can experiment with stretching what would be a "beat" of the phrases however you want. You can do this with any palo really....so long as you dont' have a palmero! LOL. Siguiriya and Solea guitar solos often stetch the beat that way. Remember even Granainas are based on Fandangos....if you don't know the fangango beat you are not gonna do a good granaina from the start.
Ricardo
marrow3 -> RE: How to play toque Libre???? (Jun. 30 2009 13:21:33)
Hi Stu It sounds like you're asking how to improvise. To qualify there is improvisation melodies, and there is improvisation in timing. Free Jazz comes to mind, like a master such as Coltrane for example. That's maybe too much a distraction. Seems to me the Rondena and Tarantas have a very distinctive chords for resolving. Sometimes you just have to try. Practice something (a falseta) until it becomes second nature then the desire to interpret it will be natural. I think there is more the one way to get there, it will just take some time and or commitment.
What I have said here is not to do with Flamenco particularly, just general. cheers, Richard
