falseta copyright question (Full Version)

Foro Flamenco: http://www.foroflamenco.com/
- Discussions: http://www.foroflamenco.com/default.asp?catApp=0
- - General: http://www.foroflamenco.com/in_forum.asp?forumid=13
- - - falseta copyright question: http://www.foroflamenco.com/fb.asp?m=111728



Message


Stu -> falseta copyright question (Jun. 24 2009 8:32:20)

hello all,

I've been asked by a film director to record a few bits of flamenco for his feature (set in Andalucia) the film isn't about flamenco, but he wants a couple of bits in there.

I just wanted to know at what level does something become unusable? or perhaps a better question is what kind of stuff can i use without risk of getting into trouble.

I'm obviously not gonna play anything from any paco albums or anything, but what about traditional falsetas? ie ones found in graf martinez/manuel granados books? are these sorts of thing usable and at what point does a falseta or compas pattern become someones property???

thanks

Stu




gabrielcito -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 24 2009 10:44:44)

Hi Stu,

If you plan to use only traditional falsetas, you run little risk of infringing any copyrights.

Traditional falsetas are generally considered to be in the public domain because 1) they are either so old that any rights originally available to the copyright holder have exhausted (even though the copyrights endure for varying lengths in different jurisdictions, and the law has changed a few times in the last century, which can make the duration tough to figure out) or 2) they have become so commonplace, i.e. "traditional," that it is practically impossible to ascertain the original author.

To the extent you play the exact falsetas as arranged by Graf-Martinez (or someone else), you would still probably run only a slight risk of violating copyright. GM would have copyright protection over his variations on traditional falsetas because the threshold level of creativity required for copyright protection is generally quite low. Lucky for you, however, the level of protection is generally commensurate with the level of creativity over what was already out there. For instance, if GM's falseta was entirely traditional other than a couple of measures of compas or a short falseta run, he would likely only have a claim against someone performing his arrangement very precisely, including those aspects original to his transcription.


Hope this eases your mind :) **even though this shouldn't be considered legal advice!**

Gabrielcito




HemeolaMan -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 24 2009 14:59:19)

the answer is: at the point when you get a letter that asks you to cease and decist.

It would be best to try to make the stuff as unrecognizable as possible. there are several tests that determine whether something has a probability of being infringement

The test of access: FAIL. internet plus study of flamenco guitar and now a post on an internet forum means you can easily be found to fail the test of access. there is no doubt that you have access.,

The test of "striking similarity" this is where you must distinguish your work. if you are found to have a striking resemblence to another recorded work of another composer you are way likely to get nailed.

summary: don't borrow obvious things.




gj Michelob -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 24 2009 16:40:56)

Good posts, Gabrielcito y HemeolaMan, one a legal counsel -I take it- the other a musicologist.

If I may add, Infringement is perfected when the succession of notes in a given 12 beat segment is identical in both the infringing and the (allegedly) infringed composition. However, the complaining composer’s work must be original. This is shown by the seniority of the publication, but it is relative (to the infringing and junior composition). The defendant may in fact defeat the infringement claim by showing that both compositions share the same challenged segment with yet a third composition.
Originality is then diluted by an earlier composition preceding both plaintiff and defendant’s work.




Estevan -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 24 2009 17:45:36)

quote:

The defendant may in fact defeat the infringement claim by showing that both compositions share the same challenged segment with yet a third composition.
Originality is then diluted by an earlier composition preceding both plaintiff and defendant’s work.

...and that's Tradition!




gj Michelob -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 24 2009 17:49:26)

quote:

quote:

gj wrote: The defendant may in fact defeat the infringement claim by showing that both compositions share the same challenged segment with yet a third composition.
Originality is then diluted by an earlier composition preceding both plaintiff and defendant’s work.

Estevan wrote: ...and that's Tradition!


Precisely, and tradition belongs to all.




Stu -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 1:48:07)

thanks folks,

kinda what I thought in the first place, I think i should be ok.




Estevan -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 9:08:50)

And...if you so much as transcribe a folk song or any traditional music, PRS in the UK then considers you the composer, for the purpose of distributing performance royalties.
(Not that you'd be a member of PRS, but it's interesting, from a legal point of view).
[8|]




Arash -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 9:22:51)

I am not sure about GM!
I would ask him through an email or something.
I remember to read somewhere in the past, that he exaggerates a bit in these "copyright" issues.
But i am not sure.




Ricardo -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 9:33:51)

you can use any of my falsetas. Give me credit for it....and we BOTH make money.[;)] Just an idea.




Ron.M -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 10:10:12)

I heard a story once, that when Bob Dylan was first getting noticed and just beginning to get famous that he ripped a song off another "folkie" in "The Village" and recorded it on a new album he was bringing out and claimed it as his own.
And there was nothing the guy could do about it, since he hadn't recorded it himself, but had planned on it as being the best track on his first album.

He'd just played it for Dylan to see what he thought.

Any of you American guys or New Yorkers know if that's true or just an urban myth?

cheers,

Ron




HemeolaMan -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 11:06:49)

i would be tthat that myth is about 50% true. since folies at the time seemed to have interesting ideas about what constitutes a song...

I would wager that the chord progression and maybe part of the melody would be similar or same. I doubt that the lyrics would be the other guys. dylan lyrics are kind of.distinctive lol

and Ricardo: no one can play your falsetas well enough to use them lol!




Ron.M -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 11:19:17)

Yeah Hem, you're probably right...

The very first time I heard the Pet Shop Boys "It's A Sin" on the radio, I thought it was a great number, but immediately thought of Cat Steven's "Wild World" as I suppose more than a few people did.

His publishing company still failed to make a successful claim in court though.


Mind you, I'm still pretty pissed off myself at that nobody Quique Paredes rippin' off my stuff! [:D]


cheers,

Ron




gj Michelob -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 12:52:39)

quote:

I heard a story once, that when Bob Dylan was first getting noticed and just beginning to get famous that he ripped a song off another "folkie" in "The Village" and recorded it on a new album he was bringing out and claimed it as his own.


Growing up as a Dylan’s fan, I remember visiting Greenwich Village in NY more as if a pilgrimage to a holy venue, than as a tourist. I remember intransigently rejecting any allegations that “my“ Bob Dylan could ever resort to misappropriating compositions. Such a prolific composer, Dylan did not seem to need any such scheme.

However, this rumor or urban legend that Dylan stole a song altogether, concerned the exceedingly notorious “blowing in the wind”, from “Freewheeling BD” [Dylan’s second album, but the one he reportedly felt as his first]. The song became the anthem of the anti Vietnam war revolutionary sentiment. Interestingly, I never liked this song, and always thought the lyrics were a bit too obvious or even cheesy for this beat generation poet. In fact, later it became an international hit when performed by “Paul Peter & Mary”. The song truly sound as if their own, with bells, jingles, flutes and Christmas lights on stage.

Compare the music and lyrics of Blowing in the Wind with the lyrics of other songs from the same album (Freewheeling BD), such as “a hard rain is gonna fall” or my absolute favorite (of which I offer an audience pleasing rendition) “don’t think twice it’s alright”. From an exegetic perspective I had felt “Blowing in the Wind” –even before I had learned about the rumor- was not Dylan’s material (I respectfully disagree with HM, who I know is a learned scholar of musicology, and seems to find it consistent with the balance of Dylan’s work).

What is rather consistent in Dylan’s poetry is the country-music story-telling approach to lyrics. Whether imbued with surrealism (as in “A hard rain is gonna fall” “Mr. Tamborine Man” “Shelter from the storm”) or sharply real as in “Tangled up in blue” the “Hurricane” , Dylan’s lyrics reveal a nearly rapping rhythm of rhymes and tongue-twisting lines.

Blowing in the wind is still blowing me away…. As the rumor would suggest!!!




Estevan -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 12:57:50)

quote:

I'm still pretty ****ed off myself at that nobody Quique Paredes rippin' off my stuff!

Not to mention that b@stard Tomatito stealing your wig!
[;)]




Ron.M -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jun. 25 2009 13:03:47)

quote:

Not to mention that b@stard Tomatito stealing your wig!


Exactly.

Call me an idiot once and shame on you...
Call me an idiot again and ain't gonna be idiocized.

cheers,

Ron




mark indigo -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jul. 21 2009 3:52:00)

quote:

I heard a story once, that when Bob Dylan was first getting noticed and just beginning to get famous that he ripped a song off another "folkie" in "The Village" and recorded it on a new album he was bringing out and claimed it as his own.


dunno about this story, but Paul Simon copyrighted english folk song "scarborough fair" after getting a mutual friend to take him round to Martin Carthy's house and getting him to play it to him

i assume what he copyrighted was Carthy's arrangement




Exitao -> RE: falseta copyright question (Jul. 21 2009 15:56:32)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gj Michelob


If I may add, Infringement is perfected when the succession of notes in a given 12 beat segment is identical in both the infringing and the (allegedly) infringed composition.

What does that mean exactly? Is that like 12 measures/bars? Or would that be 3 measures of 4/4?

This is a fascinating subject BTW.


I would think that there should be a forum specifically dedicated to this somewhere.




Page: [1]

Valid CSS!




Forum Software powered by ASP Playground Advanced Edition 2.0.5
Copyright © 2000 - 2003 ASPPlayground.NET