Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Full Version)

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RTC -> Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 4 2009 12:35:17)

If competent flamenco luthiers are given the same top of the line materials would the finished guitars sound about the same? Is it all about the materials or all about the builder or litle of both?



Armando -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 4 2009 13:26:42)

Hi RTC

I think it's out of question that the outcome would be different. The wood used is just one of many factors that make up the final sound of a guitar. Each builder has it's own building style which is always refelcted in the final instrument. So from that point of view it is very likely that the difference in the sound would differ dramatically.

R.E. Bruné published an article in a GAL magazine where he mentioned and explained the eight most important concerns of sucessful guitarmaking and wood is not on the list.

Nevertheless i don't want to say that wood doesn't play a role. I believe that the guitar is just as good as it's weakest part. That means that a good luthier is able to build a rather good guitar even with inferior woods and of course even a better one with quality woods while an inexperienced luthier wouldn't be able to build a good guitar just by having high quality, well aged tonewoods at his disposal.


regards

Armando



Stephen Eden -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 4 2009 13:30:47)

Well there are a huge amount of factors in guitar construction that contribute to the way the guitar sounds.

For instance although both makers would use the most similar of materials they may have different bracing patterns.

If it was the same maker making them side by side the sound would be as close to each other as possible. otherwise i dont think it could be achieved that easily.+



Anders Eliasson -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 5 2009 1:30:24)

Even by using the exact same bracing patterns and the same thickness etc. The guitars would be different. Its all in the hands.

I agree that materials have to be good. But its something everyone can buy and I myself have destroyed a couple of pieces of very high quality. A very important thing is to know when to throw things away.



Arash -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 5 2009 3:42:13)

I guess you could also ask: given the same top of the line ingredients, would the prepared dinner be about the same from all Cooks in the world?
I don't think so [;)]



Armando -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 5 2009 9:19:46)

quote:

I guess you could also ask: given the same top of the line ingredients, would the prepared dinner be about the same from all Cooks in the world?
I don't think so


Arash

Good answer. You're surprising me.

regards from Switzerland

Armando



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 6 2009 6:55:39)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RTC

If competent flamenco luthiers are given the same top of the line materials would the finished guitars sound about the same? Is it all about the materials or all about the builder or litle of both?


Even though there are mundane things guitar makers go through every day, I think there is a desire for most of us to try and make a better guitar each time we build. For this reason alone, we must alter our designs, and perhaps our techniques, ever so slightly from one guitar to the next.

If we are to grow in this art, then we must experiment. If we hold to the same procedure on every guitar built, then we fail to grow.

However, it is important to understand that when it is a good representation of our talents, then we must be careful not to reverse the trend by forgetting what made it right in the first place.

I have found that when a design is good, then it is due to my own techniques in building this design that will show me if I'm in the right place. There is no reason to fault the design if an original maker's guitar expresses good value.

My own work has proved to me that there is a way to improve a design by fine tuning once the overview is connected with its basic value. But once the tuning process has reached it total value, then there is reason to change a design if we choose to keep experimenting with the obvious.

It's an never ending process of exploration and discovery.

I chose to add this bit of information due to the potential of all builders who are striving to make a better guitar rather than just seeing if we can make guitars sound the same.



Arash -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 6 2009 7:01:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando
You're surprising me.



Thanks Armando, Glad that i could surprise you lol



RTC -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 6 2009 18:37:35)

Thanks to all who have responded. I can see by the answeres why this is and art and not and exact science. The quality people that take time and explain even the simple questions are first class.
I am glad that every instrument made by such talented hands will be unique.
Regards,



cathulu -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 7 2009 16:17:30)

You said competent luthier, I think they would sound about the same to be honest. Not the same, but about the same. This assumes they are building flamenco guitars, and not a flamenco vs a classical.

Let's face it, a guitar is a resonating box. The dimensions are fixed thereabouts. The only major changes imho to be made are top thickness, bracing pattern and minor changes to cavity volume, assuming equal materials.

I think the luthier's art is in getting all the details right, with all the tricks necessary to accommodate expansion and shrinkage of wood so that the finished product has a good set-up from the get go with great cosmetics. That is no easy feat.



Armando -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 7 2009 21:03:15)

quote:

Let's face it, a guitar is a resonating box. The dimensions are fixed thereabouts. The only major changes imho to be made are top thickness, bracing pattern and minor changes to cavity volume, assuming equal materials.


That's actually already enough to make a significant difference, but there is more to be done differently.

Doming of the soundboard, back thinkness, neck setup, bridge height, the linings or lining blocks, the glue, the shape of the bars and braces etc....

I'm still absolutely sure the guitars would sound different even when we assume all these things are done equaly. O.k probably they would come close to each other, but there would still be a difference.

Sometimes the differencies are easy to regognize and sometimes not. Small changes in the construction process might make up the difference between a good and a extraordinary instrument.

Given, that both luthiers are experienced i would assume that both instruments would be good sounding but i'm quite sure i would prefere one over the other.
Each luthier has it's own imagination of the "target sound" so the sound they are after is not the same for all. The goal of most luthiers is not to copy an existing instrument or luthier but to set himself apart by creating an instrument with a personal sound character. That is the reason why so many luthiers are exisiting besides the big names.

Regards

Armando



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 8 2009 5:15:24)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Armando

quote:

Let's face it, a guitar is a resonating box. The dimensions are fixed thereabouts. The only major changes imho to be made are top thickness, bracing pattern and minor changes to cavity volume, assuming equal materials.


That's actually already enough to make a significant difference, but there is more to be done differently.

Doming of the soundboard, back thinkness, neck setup, bridge height, the linings or lining blocks, the glue, the shape of the bars and braces etc....

I'm still absolutely sure the guitars would sound different even when we assume all these things are done equaly. O.k probably they would come close to each other, but there would still be a difference.

Sometimes the differencies are easy to regognize and sometimes not. Small changes in the construction process might make up the difference between a good and a extraordinary instrument.

Given, that both luthiers are experienced i would assume that both instruments would be good sounding but i'm quite sure i would prefere one over the other.
Each luthier has it's own imagination of the "target sound" so the sound they are after is not the same for all. The goal of most luthiers is not to copy an existing instrument or luthier but to set himself apart by creating an instrument with a personal sound character. That is the reason why so many luthiers are exisiting besides the big names.

Regards

Armando



This is correct and there is no way to make two identical instruments; even with the same maker. The idea is too bring everything in the top to a harmonious conclusion. Voice, balance, volume, and have it characteristically sensual to the ear. This is not an easy feat. It requires a dedicated and skillful hand to accomplish.

If it were a matter of teaching this process so that every guitar would have the same tone, then it would be known more as a science, rather than an ART. Since intuition plays a major role in voicing instruments, it stands to reason that the great accomplishment in this area would be to gather enough skills to make each guitar speak with its own voice in a refined manner.

I'm just finishing up a classical guitar I've been working on for 12 years, as I had extra time to spend with it, and it is marvelous. It is truly inspirational and everything in it works for the whole playability and sound.

My wife and I both cried when I made my last adjustment yesterday. I thought I was throuh making the fine-tuning adjustments last month but I tried one more time and it came out just right. I don't think I will ever build another one just like this guitar.



at_leo_87 -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 8 2009 16:19:50)

quote:


I'm just finishing up a classical guitar I've been working on for 12 years, as I had extra time to spend with it, and it is marvelous. It is truly inspirational and everything in it works for the whole playability and sound.


12 years! wow! what's different about this one and how come it took so long?



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 8 2009 19:24:55)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

quote:


I'm just finishing up a classical guitar I've been working on for 12 years, as I had extra time to spend with it, and it is marvelous. It is truly inspirational and everything in it works for the whole playability and sound.


12 years! wow! what's different about this one and how come it took so long?


Well, the actual time in making the guitar was not that much but the fine tuning stages and the learning of the process took a long time for me to arrive at certain knowledge that helped me to finish the project.



cathulu -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 8 2009 19:47:22)

Luthiery is a science in part, the basic principles of physics are there and there are technical papers on it. The construction of guitars is a craft, although some parts may border into art. Plenty of discussion already on that.

Ask yourself how much sound difference there is between a classical and a flamenco guitar. Then ask yourself how much difference there is between a tweeter and a bass speaker. Which sample pair, between the speakers or guitars, do you think sounds more different? Finally, consider the difference between a flamenco guitar by two competent luthiers built from the exact same materials. They will have a similar action and set-up by definition.

Now I said almost the same sound, not the same. There will be nuances and minor differences. But to the unemotional ear - say two such flamenco guitars played by various different players, do you think you can sift the difference in sound by what the player's style and fingernails introduced and what the guitar was responsible for without any visual cue?

The problem is guitars can invoke an emotion, in the luthier or the owner, and emotion can really colour the way you think about or hear something. The right setting can turn a really bad movie into a fun and enjoyable experience. So to sift the hard reality from emotion can be difficult.

Having said all that, when my luthier built flamenco guitar arrives, it better sound like nothing I ever heard before! I have an emotional and monetary investment in that sucker!



cathulu -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 8 2009 19:55:27)

That reminds me very much of the story (probably apocryphal) of this old newfie who was building a boat. He worked on it for years and years into his old age - built with loving hands. Those who knew him kept bugging him to get it out on the water. He resisted over the years but eventually succumbed to the pressure. Once on the water, his journey was over and he passed away soon after. He never enjoyed his boat on the water, but the enjoyment was in the making.

The boat became the vessel of his life in away.

I suspect your emotional response and journey you took with that guitar was in some small part similar...



Tom Blackshear -> RE: Great Materials, Great Luthiers = Same guitar? (Jun. 9 2009 11:02:43)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cathulu

That reminds me very much of the story (probably apocryphal) of this old newfie who was building a boat. He worked on it for years and years into his old age - built with loving hands. Those who knew him kept bugging him to get it out on the water. He resisted over the years but eventually succumbed to the pressure. Once on the water, his journey was over and he passed away soon after. He never enjoyed his boat on the water, but the enjoyment was in the making.

The boat became the vessel of his life in away.

I suspect your emotional response and journey you took with that guitar was in some small part similar...


Yeah, you got to love it.



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