Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge?
YES
  45% (10)
NO
  40% (9)
UNDECIDED
  13% (3)


Total Votes : 22
(last vote on : Jun. 8 2009 10:17:28) 


Message

Ron.M -> Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 10:23:21)

OK Folks,

On the next guitar challenge, should the voting be open to ALL members or only selected judges?

Let's try to get a feel for folk's attitude to this.

Remember, anyone can make any comments they wish on any player's entry afterwards.


cheers,

Ron



Ailsa -> RE: Should we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 10:31:23)

Yes we could try it, but how would the poll work? Would people just vote for their favourite, rather than give a score?



xirdneH_imiJ -> RE: Should we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 10:34:11)

i don't think the voting machine should play here, everybody could vote, the same way as now, giving scores and giving their opinion in text...



at_leo_87 -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 10:39:54)

since prizes and therefore foro contribution money is involved, it might be disappointing if it doesn't work out, especially if people dont take it seriously or if someone goes out of their way to mess things up.

that's my only concern. oh and if the players who dont do so well dont get any feedback or critique because everyone is focused and commenting only on the top players. maybe we should make a rule that if you're going to comment, then comment on all the contestants.

im impartial. either way works for me.

like i said before, we can give this a test run on a smaller scale competition without prizes.



Ailsa -> RE: Should we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 11:02:26)

quote:

everybody could vote, the same way as now


I obviously haven't explained what I mean. If you press the New Poll button you might see what I'm trying to get at. Polls are like multiple choice questions.

If there was a poll the choices would be different players - but you can't select choices by rank - only by selection or non-selection. Let's say 5 players enter - I want to vote player 2 the winner and player 4 the runner up etc. How do I do that on a Poll?

You can allow multiple selections, but I think they are equal multiple selections, not ranked.

If I've missed something that means you can rank the choices let me know - could be I just don't know how to use that facility.



Ron.M -> RE: Should we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 11:15:29)

quote:

Yes we could try it, but how would the poll work? Would people just vote for their favourite, rather than give a score?


Yes Ailsa,

The entries would still be anonymized by the organiser or manager who receives and uploads the entries.

Member voters just vote on a "first past the post" system, that is they choose the one they like the best.
If there is only a "hair" in it, then that's up to the voter to wrestle with in casting his or her vote.

"Fooling around" with the system would be difficult, since you are allowed one vote only by the automated system and "double registering" would not only get you exposed as a cheat in public, but possibly excluded from the Forum.

The names of which members voted for whom can be seen by clicking on the "bar" of the graph. (I'm not sure if this function is available only on the Admins view, but either way it ensures no foul play).

Detailled comments or advice (where appropriate) could be given by any member afterwards.

Whether prizes are involved or not it, would make no difference IMO.

I quite fancy a try out of it anyway, since this current challenge has thrown up the anomaly of half the judges voting on players with a much higher technique and knowledge level than their own. (as Ricardo and Norman pointed out).

So is THIS actually really fairer "when expensive prizes are involved" ?

Hmm..I dunno so much?

For any player playing anywhere, ultimately the Public decide whether they like your stuff or not, whether they are aficionados or know nothing more about Flamenco except for a record they think they might have somewhere in a cupboard?

Think about it anyway folks and vote on your decision.

cheers,

Ron



Ailsa -> RE: Should we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 11:19:26)

quote:

The names of which members voted for whom can be seen by clicking on the "bar" of the graph.


Think that's just for admin, but that's OK - you can keep an eye on things!



XXX -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 11:22:23)

Anyone can post a comment now too (and its already been done, lol).
What about this:
Why not mix the votings 50% public, 50% challengers. Challengers can vote each others by sending an email to an account, who collects all votes so that challengers dont see each others rankings. This way you also exclude challengers voting themselves.
Remember, the more judges, and the more anonym they are, the more you have the risk of cheating, giving more points to your buddies here etc.

In the intermediate it wasnt that obvious, but with this challenge we have to face the fact, that judgments can vary too much. Honestly, giving challengers also a voice will remove alot of frustration. It will be much more rewarding, because somebody who plays the piece is endlessly more suited to give a good opinion. To involve the public, we can mix the scores.
I mean, its sad enough that the majority of the "normal" people is not into flamenco. Should we adapt that system?

Oh, and it would surprise me alot if this poll here would have a majority for "NO" [;)] Its like asking: "Hey should there be free beer for everyone?" [:D]



Florian -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 4 2009 12:13:35)

good idea at the end of the day its the most important vote...the Majority...so it cant be wrong



Ron.M -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 5 2009 0:45:58)

Yup,
I agree Flo.

Also I suggest that to have voting rights, they should have been a member for at least 3 months and have posted at least 5 times in Forums other than Classified, Events or Resources.

This would be a countermeasure against "drive by" voting, where someone signs up with the only intent of casting a vote and not really a bona-fide member.
This can easily be checked by the Admins as can "double registration".

I can't really see how the public voting system could be any less fair than the present system of selected judges.
Also since presumably more people will vote then the sample will be broader and less subject to a particular judge's whims.

At the moment, in theory, a single judge has the power to completely change the outcome by awarding maximum points to one player and zero points to the others.

I doubt if they would be able to justify it, but nevertheless would still be remaining "within the rules".

(And we in the UK know a lot about that ATM! [:D])

The voting period would stay open for say a week or as defined by the Challenge Manager and then closed to further voting by the Admins.



It also saves the problem of running around trying to round up the last few judges who may be away or busy on other things.

cheers,

Ron



Arash -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 5 2009 2:48:16)

I don't like public poles for such challenges.
This is not personal.

I want to see who is saying what and why.

Ok, in the advanced challenge maybe we were not the best possible judges, but at least nobody hides behind a Mouse Click.



Ron.M -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 1:58:32)

Sorry....just bumping this post up in case anybody missed it during the week.

So, what is your general view after considering what's been written?

This is not a final vote or any decision making process, just an initial poll to get a rough idea of how people feel.

I see that this poll has had 166 hits already, but only 12 people could actually be bothered voting.
I'm sure we can do better than this folks.
Please take the time to have a think about it and cast your vote.

A proper deciding vote will be taken later on, nearer the event.

cheers,

Ron



Ailsa -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 2:17:48)

I've already voted but have continued to think about this.

I do think it's absolutely right that the wider membership should be able to vote, rather than appointing judges.

I think it might be particularly appropriate for the composition challenge because although there are rules about composition, what appeals to each individual will be so personal, that in a way non-expert views are just as valid.

I also agree that there should be some minimum requirement of involvement in the Foro, but 5 posts isn't enough. Has to be more than that.

Admin would have to be responsible for prevention of double counting.

The one thing I'm uncertain about is challengers voting. I think you should have to vote for someone else (and Admin could check that). If everyone just votes for themselves it's meaningless as everyone's score just goes up by one!

By the way, if the composition challenge goes ahead I won't be competing, so am happy to be the recipient of the entries (if I've done a good enough job this time, that is!)



Arash -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 2:39:50)

instead of a pole, we could also allow everyone (or at least those who are quite active) to vote together with a little comment and write that comment in the thread (or if they don't want to comment, that would be also fine, just vote). then just count the votes.

that way we reach a wider membership, but prevent misuse and prevent a lot of work for Admin to check hundreds of IPs.

And the thread will also be always kickin with lot of posts



Ron.M -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 2:42:11)

quote:

The one thing I'm uncertain about is challengers voting. I think you should have to vote for someone else (and Admin could check that). If everyone just votes for themselves it's meaningless as everyone's score just goes up by one!


Yeah Ailsa,

I know if challengers vote for themselves it is in effect a wasted vote, but it does stop "tactical" voting.
That is, the smart move would be to refrain from voting until the last moment and vote for the person with the lowest points rather than the person who is in equal place with you, or just behind.

So I'd say either assume challengers will vote for themselves or disallow them from voting at all.

cheers,

Ron



Pimientito -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 2:52:14)

I think Norman said in another thread that there are many people who cant keep compas yet still claim to know when something is "out of compas". At the advanced level its quite tricky to judge especially if all the entries are way above your own level of playing. Its clear from the comments given on the advanced challenge that more experienced flamencos make better judges. It would be like asking me to judge an olympic ice skating competition where everyone to my eyes is amazing. I would just give everyone full points. I think a poll could work for the beginners challenge but the advanced challenge needs judges with experience.



XXX -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 3:00:59)

First off, i am against "voting", i am for judging. You know how this started? We wanted to compare different versions/interpretations of a falseta (well, that was my inention at least). In any case, when we started with the idea, there were no "prizes". It was Michelobs and Jasons spontanous decision to offer prizes. Voting will lead to 2-3 people gaining all comments/attention/points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

So I'd say either assume challengers will vote for themselves or disallow them from voting at all.



... or make sure judging/voting is done closed to the public, i.e. you cant see the results before not all of them are finished. Thats the only "fair" way to exclude influence from other judgings anyway. Somebody who knows the identity of the mp3s can collect the judgings/votes of the challengers (i already wrote that above), and he can check if challengers stick to the rule to not judge themselves.

Judging is hard. Even if its a very experienced flamenco, it still makes a difference between someone who plays the piece, knows what to look for in detail, or not.



Ron.M -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 3:10:40)

quote:

and prevent a lot of work for Admin to check hundreds of IPs.


We should be so lucky!

Going by previous apathy, we'd probably have 20.

cheers,

Ron



Arash -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 3:30:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

I think it might be particularly appropriate for the composition challenge because although there are rules about composition, what appeals to each individual will be so personal, that in a way non-expert views are just as valid.



Thats an interesting and valid point.
I didn't think about it.
Its true, when it comes to compositions, non expert views are valid (and could also be interesting for the person who composed).
So, it is a little different to, let say, copy from Tomatito.



Florian -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 4:50:16)

quote:

advanced challenge needs judges with experience


and there inlies the problem [:)] since advanced means advanced..its hard to find supperadvanced ..ideally u want someone above or around the same level judging a level...but if its difficult to find that expecially if they are compeating.. the next best thing u have is public opinion and mass voting

togheder 30 beginners or people who dont know anything about flamenco are more right than 1 supperadvanced anyway..its the ultimate vote
if 200 people like and agreee on a winner....how could they regardless of the level be wrong as oposed to one opinion or nine ?...best belive that the one that wins is doing SOMETHING right, satifying the listeners somehow...plus this is a flamenco forum we dont have general population..everyone listens to flamenco after a certain level its all about personal taste anyway...

we have denied the majority of our members the right to have they say long enough...they have ears they know what they like..regardlesss of their level


even when wrong is right..its eazyer to get it wrong with 9 less experienced judges (since we talking about advanced) then it is with 200

i am not saying whos experienced and who not..thats not the point , they might have judged the advanced challenge 100% spot on, and they did...whomever the majority picks is the winner, its irelevant , i am talking statistics.. we are talking about advanced and chances are the judge is either 2 or 3 pros and rest are lesss experienced then the entries..

now if we have to do that we might as well get a broader view

we arew still learning how to best do this things..i knew from the sec we started talking about challenges and judges it was always going to be really hard to judge the advanced

our scoring system works well for beginners and intermediates but it leaves us cold when it comes to advanced judging...and again not talking about anyone or time in peticular i think judges did a great job...but generaly and statisticly its just the way things are......



Doitsujin -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 6:23:23)

Why not asking e.g. Chicuelo for judging an advanced challenge? Would be the best IMO.



El Camino -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 6:42:01)

I think a poll is the best way to go ,

i am no expert on flamenco but i know which entry i liked best .



Ron.M -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 6:42:20)

Hi Doit,

That would certainly be possible, but usually these professionals work through a Manager or Management Agency who would normally seek some sort of payment.

We could try by trying to appeal to the Artist directly that it is only an amateur Forum and there wouldn't be much of their time involved and we would be willing to promote their latest album or tour etc for the duration.

Probably reliability would be a major factor in that they may or may not be available during the judging period.

Worth a thought though.

cheers,

Ron



Ron.M -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 6:50:11)

quote:

I think a poll is the best way to go


Then, El Camino, why don't you vote to say so?
It just means pushing a little button at the top of the page.

Same with everybody else.
Sure give us your opinion, but please make your view known in the poll otherwise your opinion will not be taken into consideration.

cheers,

Ron



El Camino -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 7 2009 6:56:15)

Sorry Ron i will do that now [:)]



gj Michelob -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 8 2009 6:33:29)

quote:

Why not asking e.g. Chicuelo for judging an advanced challenge? Would be the best IMO.


Tremendous idea, Doits…. I think we could use this for the Composition challenge.

I might have mentioned I made a few acquaintances with Spain’s Ministry of Culture during a recent visit to Madrid. While I was wondering how to involve that office for the mutual benefit of that protectorate and this Foro, I suppose this would be a phenomenal way to showcase what we can do and mean to one of Spain’s cultural treasure, Flamenco.

If enough members will submit compositions, we should combine the popular vote along with a submission to that ministry who could easily form a panel of distinguished musicians to judge our compositions. after all, the international stretch of the membership on this forum proves its importance to the ministry’s office.

Lovely thought, I will get working on it.



mark indigo -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 8 2009 7:10:37)

why not do like on the x factor, where the judges give their votes, scores and opinions, and then the public vote (perhaps affected by the judges opinions, perhaps affected by their libidos...[&:]) which counts for 50% of the final total score...?

nah, get chicuelo![:D]



gj Michelob -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 8 2009 7:16:30)

quote:

nah, get chicuelo!


LOL.... [:D][:D][:D]



Doitsujin -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 8 2009 8:59:57)

quote:

nah, get chicuelo!


That was no joke... [8D]



mrMagenta -> RE: Shoud we have a public poll on the next challenge? (Jun. 8 2009 11:55:07)

I voted 'undecided'. I think I'd prefer a 50/50 combination of polling and judges, especially if the judges are very few. But I'd still restrict poll votes to members with a minimum amount of posts as suggested, and perhaps a rule that says the voter must have been registered on the foro for 'x amount of time' to vote.

Ideally advanced players should be judged by advanced players, but mostly because that's how they can get more valuable technical feedback and constructive critique. I judged the advanced challenge privately, as a listening exercise, and my scores were about the same as Jasons, but I couldn't have formulated the critique he gave.

My suspicion is that there wouldn't be a huge difference in the end results if medium/beginner players would judge an advanced challenge as opposed to advanced ones, so I'm not so concerned about the fairness. I think most of us are accustomed to listening to different levels of flamenco guitar, and can recognize what makes for good playing, we might however not be as experienced in breaking it down and putting it in concrete terms, or playing all that well ourselves.



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