Guitar supports and back problems (Full Version)

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johnguitars -> Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 7:01:01)

I recently had surgery for a slipped disc and have been searching for a means to reduce the pain when playing (yes, I am an addict). I have tried the gitano and if I can get it to stick it reduces my French Polish to something that looks like a squid attacked it. I have never been able to do the PDL posture and usually go with the classical foot stool posture. I recently became aware of this product
: http://www.ergoplay-shop.de/epages/62022937.sf

ake: Ergo play and I am wondering if anyone on the Foro has experience with it and if so which model?

40 years of this is like a small stream that eats a mountain and moves it to the sea. Any ideas on this?



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 8:15:25)

An important issue... Have you considered a thinner guitar like Cordoba's 55 FCWE? I've never had back problems due to electric guitar and am not aware of it being an issue for other electric guitar players. Oscar Herrero mentions back problems being a common issue for flamenco players. The deeper body causes poor posture by forcing the player to reach over the instrument. Just a thought.



duende -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 9:01:16)

my back has begun to hurt after driving to long in combination with playing to much guitar.

I think the "gitano stand" is a nice product.



mrMagenta -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 9:31:39)

That looks like a high-tech version of the gitano, but it still uses suction, so it would leave the same squidmarks right? It's not beautiful, but it looks comfortable, though once you've set it up with all the right angles etc, wouldn't you get fixed into sitting in that same position very long?



jonc -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 10:03:51)

Although I've never used this personally, I did meet an incredible guitarist at a fancy place in nyc who does use this or something very similar and I've never seen such a light and effortless left hand as his. His style (not flamenco) employed near-constant position changes yet he never displayed any sign of tension.

After playing for nearly 9 hours yesterday, I must say that my left thumb at the base and my forearm are feeling somewhat less than superb, and I'm strongly considering giving this a try. (I tend to play with a pdl posture and really ought to be more mindful of when I'm overusing my left-hand thumb for fretting assistance ... ouch!)



mark indigo -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 14:32:59)

quote:

I have tried the gitano and if I can get it to stick it reduces my French Polish to something that looks like a squid attacked it.


you have a golpeador/tapplate on the soundboard of the guitar, right? go to a guitar maker and get them to put a piece of the same clear plastic on the underside of the guitar where you want to attache the guitar support, that way the suport will stick to the guitar and the cups won't leave marks.

quote:

Ergo play and I am wondering if anyone on the Foro has experience with it and if so which model?


when i was considering going from footstool to guitar rest (that's after starting with "trad" and going to PDL for a long time) i tried an Ergo play, dunno which model, but i didn't like it much, it was too cumbersome, and tended not to stick. in the end i went with the "Gitano" and still use one. It's not ideal, but for me it seems the best i have come across. It might just be a personal thing, my recommendation would be to try them all.



at_leo_87 -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 16:37:00)

quote:

you have a golpeador/tapplate on the soundboard of the guitar, right? go to a guitar maker and get them to put a piece of the same clear plastic on the underside of the guitar where you want to attache the guitar support, that way the suport will stick to the guitar and the cups won't leave marks.


there's a diy thing from strings by mail
http://www.stringsbymail.com/catalog/accessories/details/xxxSuction-CupProtectdetail.asp

not sure if it works on french polish.

and check out the tenuto support
http://www.delcamp.net/forum/en/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=38860

how about the traditional position? it'll save you a lot of money buying and trying out a bunch of supports.



kozz -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 20:11:22)

John.
I used the adjustable ergoplay while I was suffering from a hernia. I didn't use it on my left leg, but on the right one. It forced me that way to sit straight.
Nowadays I sometime use it again because it really can give some good support.
With the ergoplay two stickers were provided to stick it on.

Although I like it very much, it isn't a thing I would like to use all the time. Changing from posture and really paying attention to your posture will help.
I made the mistake hanging over the guitar contstantly in the beginning and that was bad.

Perhaps try another chair, somewhat lower, so the guitar will fit tightly and you have more freedom to straigthen your back. For me that last part is essential for not running in the hernia-aftereffects.



John O. -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 25 2009 23:51:27)

As a side note - I read recently that Vicente Amigo had to undergo a disc hernia operation this year. He's doing good now...

I'm sure these thing still help a great deal, however if you spend hours a day sitting with your head down you'll still have back problems. I could never make sure my posture is correct the entire time I'm playing my guitar.

I've gotten majorly into sports now. 1-2 times a week weights and stomach excersize, 2-3 times a week running. Lost about 20 pounds. More importantly though, my back feels A LOT better.



mark indigo -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 26 2009 3:44:18)

quote:

Oscar Herrero mentions back problems being a common issue for flamenco players.


most people, when they cross one leg over the other, like PDL, Vicente, et al/y todos, rotate their pelvis backwards, so that the lumbar curve is completely inverted and they are effectively sitting on their sacrum/lower spine, and this puts enormous pressure on on the discs in the lower spine and not surprising really that this happens;

quote:

I read recently that Vicente Amigo had to undergo a disc hernia operation this year.


it's not inevitable that crossing on leg over the other will cause the pelvis to rotate back, it's just that most teens and adults do not have the flexibility in their hip joints that they were born with, and so they end up bending at the waist instead of the hips.

Part of the reason for this is the conception that the legs go up to and hinge from the waist, ie above the pelvis, when actually the legs hinge at the bottom of the pelvis....



HemeolaMan -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 26 2009 20:52:16)

i have a piece of golpeador on the side of my guitar that i stick the gitano on to. works like a charm



johnguitars -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 26 2009 23:11:04)

These are all very good suggestions. I have gained 25 lbs because of the surgery (there were actually two performed) because I can no longer run or workout as I used to. This adds to the back problems I am sure. A thinner guitar would help and I live near a store that has a Cordoba 55 FCWE and I will try it out ($1,100.00 is a good price?). I also am in physical therapy and I even took a guitar in and played for them. Unfortunately, they enjoyed that more than helping me find postures with the guitar that might help and figuring out which ones might be hurting it more. It came down to having good posture all the time and not just with the guitar. I also have to add that I have been starting to use a “guitar chair”. This chair does lower you in relation to the floor and is quite comfortable. I think for me alternating different postures helps some. I may even try using a strap as I have seen that done by people with chronic back problems and they seem to feel it is the, “cure”. I would have to add two strap retainers but so…..the squids have already messed up that guitar from an aesthetic viewpoint anyway. I am going to try part of a spare golpeador to save the finishes on my remaining instruments.



Pgh_flamenco -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 27 2009 3:46:46)

quote:

A thinner guitar would help and I live near a store that has a Cordoba 55 FCWE and I will try it out ($1,100.00 is a good price?).


The 55FCWE’s I’ve tried at Guitar Center have varied widely in string height. One had low string height and was a joy to play. The rest were unplayable because the strings were almost an inch off the fret board. $1,100 USD might be a decent price for a good 55FCWE at GC, but they go for a lot less on eBay—anywhere between $600 to $1,100 USD. I even saw one go for around $500 USD because it was miscategorized and listed with the classical guitars. For a guitar you cannot demo I’d be sure to ask about the string height.



mark indigo -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 27 2009 10:26:56)

quote:

helping me find postures with the guitar that might help and figuring out which ones might be hurting it more. It came down to having good posture all the time and not just with the guitar.


the "postures" which hurt are generally caused by using the wrong body parts for, and/or unnecessary muscle tension surplus to, the task in hand.... such as my example above about sitting on the lower back/sacrum.

the "good postures" are created by using the appropriate body parts, and/or the minimum muscle tension required, for the task in hand, whether it be standing, walking, running, sitting in a chair, or sitting in a chair playing the guitar



mark indigo -> RE: Guitar supports and back problems (May 29 2009 12:52:07)

quote:

An important issue... Have you considered a thinner guitar like Cordoba's 55 FCWE? I've never had back problems due to electric guitar and am not aware of it being an issue for other electric guitar players. Oscar Herrero mentions back problems being a common issue for flamenco players. The deeper body causes poor posture by forcing the player to reach over the instrument.


IMO if your upper arm is longer than the depth of the body you won't have a problem! The deep body does not "force" the player to reach over it, as reaching over it is not necessary, all you have to do is to place your arm over it.

One thing i think is a problem is that players start at a young age and are used to their chins being just over the guitar, and as they grow they stick with this idea, and crouch over the guitar, generating all kinds of back problems.... but it's not necessary to crouch over the guitar like this, and it's not the guitars fault!

Even people who learn guitar at a later age get the same problem, because they watch people who sit/play like this and think that's the way to hold the guitar/play.

quote:

how about the traditional position?
While looking for something else in Paco Sevilla's book on Paco De Lucia i found this passage about holding the guitar the traditional way;

"the position had been devised by very small people, and a modern six-footer had to dangerously contort his right hand in order to get it anywhere near the strings (with frequent tendon damage as a result).... keeping the guitar upright required considerable muscular effort, necessitating the squeezing of the instrument between the thigh and arm, and sometimes the support of the guitar neck with the left hand, which, ideally should be completely free to move around the fingerboard."

IMO the ideal would be a much bigger instrument, the size of a bass spanish guitar or a martin jumbo, so guitar body depth would ideally be greater, as well as other proportions.... but i know the sound would suffer as a result, so it's a case of working out how to sit and play with minimal bodily distortion, and minimal unnecessary tension



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