Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint?

Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Full Version)

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hamia -> Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 7 2004 17:39:47)
My copy of Graf-Martinez flamenco method has just arrived and I was shocked to see that I've been learning picardo the wrong way. According to GM, the correct technique is to keep the hand fairly flat and move the finger from the 2nd joint. This is pretty much exactly the opposite of what I've been doing. I keep my wrist high, my fingers fairly straight, and all movement comes from the knuckle joint. Is GM correct with his advice? If he is - do all flamenco players universally employ this 2nd joint technique or are there variations between different players? Angus

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 7 2004 17:46:49)
Angus, you should search our archives for our many discussions of this subject.

Escribano -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 7 2004 18:36:10)
quote: Angus, you should search our archives for our many discussions of this subject. Our search isn't working at the moment.

Patrick -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 7 2004 21:15:54)
quote: I was shocked to see that I've been learning picardo the wrong way. Angus, First off, when it comes to picado, or for that matter any other technique, there is "no wrong or right way". The method that Graf uses works very well for him. Several of us on this forum have tried it, to no avail. Without going into a lengthy dissertation on the complexities of "Picado", suffice it to say, that many accomplished flamenco guitarist maintain a higher hand than Graf and play more from the large knuckle (finger meeting the hand). So take a lot of what you read with a grain of salt including what I just wrote! Pat

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 7 2004 23:03:30)
Yes, my hands are only gently curved, not claw-like, and I have a respectable picado. My suggestion would be to look around, watch videos, see good players live, and then try out what you think looks the best! After all Paco de Lucia: claw like, palm near soundboard Sabicas: fingers straight David Russell: hand always in one position, changes attitude of individual fingers depending on situation. All three of these players play picado better than most of us will ever be, and as good as is needed for the idiom.

hamia -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 8 2004 4:07:20)
Well, that's a relief - the flat hand method is not exactly intuitive. The "physics" behind it isn't so clear either. A raised hand seems to minimize finger movement, and also allows more string coverage (1st to 6th) without any large movement of the wrist or arm. I recently saw a clip of Vicente Amigo (on the flamenco world website) playing a very nice piece (taranta I think). His picardo is great of course but his flat hand means that he has to keep raising his elbow/upper arm when he plays the bass strings. Makes it seem like hard work. Angus

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 8 2004 4:33:11)
Angus, you are correct in that the straight finger allows vertical movement much easier. The Paco style you mentioned puts a big burden on the shoulder to hold up the hand. The hardest part about this, really, is training, because to get a good picado you have to spend at least an hour a day, I'd say, playing scales. So you'd have to take a lot of breaks. But as far as physiogonomy goes, the straighter your wrist the stronger your muscles can work. A bent wrist also bends the tendons and makes them run through the carpal tunnel. So keeping the wrist straight like Paco and Vicente elminates the danger of picado and allows for stronger, faster picado. That being said, you can achieve all the speed and strength you need the old way too.

Jon Boyes -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 8 2004 9:09:55)
quote: ORIGINAL: hamia My copy of Graf-Martinez flamenco method has just arrived Can't add to what Pat and Mike already succinctly say - do what works for you. You wouldn't believe some of the nutty technique solutions I have to contend with [:D] I'd be interested to hear what you think of the Graf Martinez stuff. Do you have the second book as well? Jon

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 8 2004 17:13:06)
About this Graf Martinez guy, his book gets mentioned again and again, almost as much as the estimable Juan Martin. I wonder why that is, has anyone heard him play? Is he such a monster on picado that everyone cites his description?

duende -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 8 2004 17:37:10)
mIGUEL I have book 1 and 2. And i think they are very good for beginners But i personaly find his playing a bit stiff and "square" . It´s NOT bad but not my cup of tea. As material for learning i find his books better then juan martin but worse in some ways. Henrik

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 8 2004 17:49:52)
What I don't understand is why he seems to be regarded as an expert on picado. I hear his name over and over again in connection with picado. Does he have Paco-like picado or something?

Jon Boyes -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 8:35:30)
quote: ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria About this Graf Martinez guy, his book gets mentioned again and again, almost as much as the estimable Juan Martin. I wonder why that is, has anyone heard him play? Teaching and playing are entirely separate skills. Jon

hamia -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 11:01:52)
GMs books are pretty good I think. Got both volumes plus his one on gypsy guitar. Haven't yet had time to play through them but they seem to cover the essentials such as rasguado and compass in detail. Angus

Escribano -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 12:03:01)
quote: Got both volumes plus his one on gypo guitar I think you mean flamenco guitar? Your alternative maybe a typo but it could be read as offensive. Tell me it's not so.

Bob Arbuckle -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 15:12:25)
Hello Simon, Angus is correct, GM published a book & CD called Gypsy Guitar. It's 100% Rumba. I have his books and like them. He plans to introduce a DVD suitable for USA this autumn. His playing is clean and the instruction is very detailed, especially Bulerias (book two). He demonstates the various ways to tap your foot to Bulerias, i.e. in twos, 12-3-6-8-10 or 12-3-7-8-10. I have watched the pros in the Chicago area and some use twos and others tap their foot to the accents. One of the better players keeps time in threes and goes in and out of falsetas always staying in compas. One thing is for sure...you cannot tap to every beat, so you must pick one that works for you and keeps you in compas. Bob

Kate -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 15:36:40)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bob Arbuckle Hello Simon, Angus is correct, GM published a book & CD called Gypsy Guitar. It's 100% Rumba. Bob Bob, the point Simon was making was that Angus used the word 'gyppo'. In England, and amongst English speaking Gypsies all over the world including America this is a dreadful insult and we should be aware of that and avoid using these derrogatory terms. You used the correct term Gypsy Guitar, complete with capitals. Kate

Bob Arbuckle -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 16:13:59)
Hello Kate, Thanks for the claification, but I did not find the offensive word in Angus' post? Bob

Downing -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 16:58:31)
Kate, Just thought I'd chime in to say that I don't think there is a derogatory term for gypsies in the United States or at least here in the upper left-hand corner of the country. Probably because whatever gypsy community is here is pretty small. You never know what a particular slur might be. A few years ago I went on a bicycle racing tour of Belgium and France. The group I was with sat down for coffee in Brugge. We ended up having a brief conversation with the folks at the table next to us since we all spoke English as they were from the UK. At one point, one of the guys at that table said something to me to the effect that he was glad to get away from the [insert strange sounding word here]. I nodded my head politely, having no clue what he was talking about but thought maybe it had to do with the weather. Later, a photographer in our group, Graham Watson from England, told me it was a racial slur! I was very embarrassed. In any case, thanks for the heads up.

Kate -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 17:33:38)
quote: ORIGINAL: Downing Kate, Just thought I'd chime in to say that I don't think there is a derogatory term for gypsies in the United States or at least here in the upper left-hand corner of the country. Probably because whatever gypsy community is here is pretty small. Hi Downing, You'd be surprised, there are over 2,000,000 Gypsies in America though not necessarily in your partof the world but they tend to keep their heads down. And the ones I know all detest being called by that term so I guess it is used all over. Anyway I agree with you totally about not knowing what is derrogotary or not when in a foreign country. I was at the Detroit festival and asked which guy was the stage manager. They described him as tall, well they were all tall so I was none the wiser, then they said the one in the yellow tshirt, but they were all wearing yellow tshirts, so I said "you mean the black guy' and their was sharp intake of breath. Apparantly I was out of order, although to me it was obvious he was the only balck guy on the stage and they were doing their very best to call him anything but black. In England, my godchildren are proud to describe themselves as 'black' as was , I found out later, the stage manager at the Detroit festival who was Jamaican/Londoner and a recent immigrant into the US. kate

Guest -> [Deleted] (Jul. 9 2004 17:48:46)
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Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 18:09:54)
I for one, have only knowingly met a gypsy once here in the States. I was at a 7-11 and there was this odd-looking group of people, one of them was a girl (pregnant), and they were speaking some strange langauge that sounded...well I don't know what it sounded like, maybe Eastern European something....slavic perhaps. I asked one of them what language they were speaking, and one of them looked at me hard and seemed to spit something rather harsh my way. But then one of them said they were Gypsies. I certainly had no idea there existed a foul word for them in the US. As for blacks, it's funny, I guess "African-American" is the "correct" term, but I refer to them as blacks, and they refer to themselves with that word as well as sometimes another word which I don't use... I have two fairly close black friends, so maybe that's why I feel comfortable. But if I can call a white person white, I would feel silly calling a black person black. Although you aren't supposed to call Asians yellow, or American Indians red. I guess you just have to be here to know what you're supposed to say! :) By the way, Andy, political correctness is obnoxious but in the end I think it is for the better. I don't like being called a chink or a jap... and you know you aren't supposed to say "oriental" anymore either. Just say Asian, I certainly feel more comfortable that way. What political correctness does is go overboard to protect the rights of those who have historically been put upon. We in the racial majority, who have no real understanding of what it is like to be a minority, should just put up with this minor inconvenience, taking it on faith that by doing so we are sparing other people some measure of pain. When people gripe too much about it (and I am not putting you in this category), it shows they are insensitive and ignorant of the condition of other people's lives.

Ron.M -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 18:59:37)
When I was working overseas, some people would refer to me as "Jock" or "The Jock". I don't personally know anybody in Scotland called Jock. Didn't really bother me that much though. The only person I've ever met in Scotland called Jock, was Big Jock who worked as a ganger (labourer) on the Railways. And he was from Great Yarmouth (in the SE of England) and had a strong English accent. Big Jock told me a great story about the Queen's Pullman coach (carriage) being up in Glasgow for an engineering refit. A good few of the "Navvies" went and used the Queen's toilet, which was described to me as being of delicate porcelain with an intricate flower pattern. I wonder if HM knows about this? One of them was proud to say he'd had a "number two" while reading the racing tips in the "Sporting Chronicle" and having a smoke. LOL! Ron

Escribano -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 9 2004 19:55:54)
quote: Just say Asian, I certainly feel more comfortable that way Which in Britain would mean you were of Indian extraction[;)]

Kate -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 10 2004 12:51:36)
quote: ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria I for one, have only knowingly met a gypsy once here in the States. I was at a 7-11 and there was this odd-looking group of people, one of them was a girl (pregnant), and they were speaking some strange langauge that sounded...well I don't know what it sounded like, maybe Eastern European something....slavic perhaps. They could have been talking Romanes. But really you noticed this group of people because they were different, foreign, maybe they had just emigrated from Eastern Europe. The majority of Gypsy people in the States have been there for many generations, they dress and appear as American as the next person, some still 'rooker the chib' but many of the younger ones do not. Some still keep 'romanipen' but you wouldn't realise it even if you visited their homes. A Gypsy friend of mine was born on the road in the States , now a grandmother and settled in Texas, she spent her childhood travelling round America. Her husband also a Gypsy was in the Army, a vietnam vet, their son is in Iraq right now. Also talking of Gypsies in America there is a documenatry which has acheived some acclaim called 'The American Gypsy". If anyone finds a copy I'd love to get hold of one. Kate

Miguel de Maria -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 10 2004 15:46:56)
Well I am playing for some wedding in September and I sent out my demo CD to the bride to be. She said her uncle heard a soleares and claimed it was Gypsy music, as he is a gypsy, and he's polish!

Kate -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 11 2004 17:14:19)
quote: ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria Well I am playing for some wedding in September and I sent out my demo CD to the bride to be. She said her uncle heard a soleares and claimed it was Gypsy music, as he is a gypsy, and he's polish! He'd be right wouldn't he, flamenco may contain many other elements but it is clearly Gypsy music. At least to me. Have you seen the film Latcho Drom? Its a music documentary following Gypsy families from India, through Eastern Europe and down to Spain, where Remedios Amaya and her family do the honours for flamenco. The music differs from country to country but there is always that distinct Gypsy sound/feel. I think you'll have a great time playing at the wedding and they will love your flamenco pieces. Have fun. Kate

hamia -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 12 2004 11:01:43)
Well, certainly didn't mean to offend anyone - poor choice of words on my part. I've been practising briefly with the GM flattened palm picado technique and it seems an interesting method worthy of further investigation. It could be "the way to go"! Feels pretty awkward at first and you need to deliberately concentrate on flattening the palm but it does get easier with practice. I will stick with this for a few months and see how I progress. My new guitar arrived a few days ago but only had it for a day before I had to go away on business and won't be able to play for a week or so. Does anyone know of any really portable practice guitars? Maybe something with a neck that folds over. In Juan Martin's 42 graded pieces there's a photo of him with a small portable practice picker - has anyone tried one of these - are they useful? Angus

Escribano -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 12 2004 11:30:16)
quote: Does anyone know of any really portable practice guitars? Maybe something with a neck that folds over. In Juan Martin's 42 graded pieces there's a photo of him with a small portable practice picker - has anyone tried one of these - are they useful? I use the Aria Sinsonido silent guitar for travel - see http://www.foroflamenco.com/m.asp?m=2929&appid=&mpage=1&p=&key=sinsonido&tmode=&smode= The small picker may be the Guitar Mute, which is great for picado and ras practise.

hamia -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 12 2004 15:52:49)
Thanks for the link. Exactly what I've been looking for and I've just ordered a sinsonido classical over the internet. Will also get the Guitar Mute - although not quite sure why it needs an instructional DVD. You would imagine its use is pretty self-explanatory! Angus

Escribano -> RE: Picardo - knuckle or 2nd joint? (Jul. 12 2004 19:47:01)
Good, don't put too much pressure inserting the "sides" of the Sinsonido as the wood can crack a little. You'll like it, the sound is quite acceptable. I threw out the Guitar Mute video.

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