continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Full Version)

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michel -> continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 3:58:04)

hi everybody

i got older instructional books with continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes, for example:
c-a-m-i-c-a-m-i-c-a-m-i with no pause between. Graf-Martinez writes that it doesn’t make much sense to learn this movement, because it’s hardly impossible to play it continuously, Juan Martin uses it in his instructional-video.
So do you guys use this rasgueado? or does it make more sense to substitute with the a-m-i-i rasgueo (3 downstrokes / 1 upstroke) or does anyone have other ideas?

thank you



at_leo_87 -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 4:32:17)

i've seen someone on youtube demonstrate a continuous c-a-m-i rasgueado. as soon as the index finger flicked down, he pulled his other fingers back up. can't remember if it was smooth and even or not.

personally, a-m-i-i feels much more natural.



Arash -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 5:34:37)

I would say keep practicing and perfection of the 3finger a,m,i,i for continous (its easier and sounds better imo) and use 4 finger Rasg. if you want a slightly different sound here and there as single Rasg.
However, it is possible (my uncle plays 4finger cont. Rasgs)....if you prefer "very old school" sound, it even could sound better than the "machine gun" 3 finger Rasgs.....

But generally 3 finger cont. Rasg. is what most people play nowadays.



mrMagenta -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 5:47:57)

I use it but rarely, and only in slow motion. I think it's nice for the first two bars of the typical siguiriyas A-chord llamada (or whatchacallit), it has a certain 'all down strokes' weight to it. I would play 16ths ieam ieam i with accents on i.

Oscar Herrero shows the technique in his video too. I can't get it to his speed, but practicing it is probably good for continous eamii and amii rasgueados.



michel -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 6:22:00)

thank you for your ideas

mr majenta:
that's why i try to use it, as you say it has a certain weight, when i use it continuously in siguiriyas i play c-a-m-i-i but the four-16th feel gets lost

leo, arash:
yes a continuous amii rasgueo really sounds good but i have different problems with it:
-it tires the hand when i play it continuously
-i'm still not able to play all the strings, so it requires an additional downward
movement of the hand (even though my fingers a placed close enough to the
strings) which isn't very economic!
-my i-upstroke is ugly

...am i a loser?
[8|]



Arash -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 6:47:06)

quote:

ORIGINAL: michel

thank you for your ideas

mr majenta:
that's why i try to use it, as you say it has a certain weight, when i use it continuously in siguiriyas i play c-a-m-i-i and the four-16th feel gets lost

leo, arash:
yes a continuous amii rasgueo really sounds good but i have different problems with it:
-it tires the hand when i play it continuously
-i'm still not able to play all the strings, so it requires an additional downward
movement of the hand (even though my fingers a placed close enough to the
strings) which isn't very economic!
-my i-upstroke is ugly

...am i a loser?
[8|]


IMO actually you dont need to play all 5 strings with the same loudness and intensity (or even play the clear E-string at all for example when playing an A-Chord or something) - when you play the a,m,i downstrokes.
The treble E-string will be played then with the i-upstroke ....so most important are the first 4 strings......
Even Gerardo plays mostly the bass strings in his Encuentro video when teaching the cont. Rasgueados.

You can also switch from "angled/hooked in to string" thumb position to "laying" thumb position to get a different sound and/or playing all strings:

For example look here at 3:08 ........ he changes the rasguedo method slightly a bit at 3:12 and gets a different sound (more old school sound) and plays all strings with the same intensity.




Arash -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 7:24:23)

I had uploaded a short part of the Rasgueados lesson from gerardo in the Solea challenge thread.

Check out the continous Rasg part at 1:45 !
You see that he doesnt even play the treble E-string when doing the downstrokes.
He is almost playing only the first 3 strings only.

http://www.foroflamenco.com/upfiles/1338/Ki19288.wmv



michel -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 8:29:08)

Wow, ricardo is a monster on this solea por bulerias!
both videos were helpful, i noticed that the hands weren't so close to the strings as i thought it has to be, but i understood what you meant with change from a hooked pulgar to a laying position.
good examples for really powerful amii-strokes! i also noticed that i don't play mine with fundamental errors, my amii is more or less similar, of course with a lack of a decade of practice!



Gummy -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 8:56:00)

There is a lesson on flamenco teacher of SPB by Ricardo. It has many sections of that very SPB on it. Pretty cool.



gato -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 9:05:13)

leo, you have got it! While you go from c to a to m to i you do start to retract the previous fingers, so it is indeed continous motion. I find it a heck of a lot easier than any other technique, and if you want other syncopations you can for example do c-a-m-i-i-c-a-m-i-i and so on, but the real asset that I find is being able to modulate the chord forms in order to really get a good feel for the accents, and, accents can be created in this way, and with c-a-m-i variations and syncopations.
Gary



Ricardo -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 10:27:14)

The continuous rasg. cami,cami, is used like you guys said, a lot in Siguiriyas for a dark sound where you are just rolling on the basses. Of course you can use what ever technique to target which ever string group you want. Juan Serrano uses this technique all the time for all styles and sounds. I think and important trick for getting it even and in rhythm with your normal compas strumming is to either start on or at least feel the beat on the index finger down stroke....so you don't have any odd rhythms that break the eveness and smoothness of sound.

cam-icam-icam-icam-i....

Incidentally there is a triplet version of this technique which uses the same idea am-iam-iam-iam-i....all down strokes again. Can't remember where I heard or saw that one...



XXX -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 12:34:47)

If you are seeking for alternatives, there are of course always the (to me) more easy techniques iai (for 3s) and paip (for 4s). Its not the same sound... but on the other hand, cami is used so seldomly, maybe you can get away without even learning it? (my plan) [:D]



gato -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 30 2009 13:15:19)

You know there are so many forms of so many techniques, and they are all good for getting a desired effect, and if you learn enough of them and become fluent in this way you will become a master, and that for some is a self realization more than it is a goal.

I mean you can reverse your direction and play ras just as well. There are more techniques than you can imagine, and with proper instruction you can learn mostly all and choose what you want to use. Yet still, that is for the very few and far between, and that is what they say about the classical/flamenco guitar it is for the very few.

Otherwise, the flamenco is just an interest and that's why people just don't have the potential, so it is passed on to you person to person, and I think that all though things like cheap instruction manuels, dvd's, and web sites are great they cannot impart you with the wisdom of the ages. Let alone the vast cultural dialogue that goes on between people. And books don't always provide us with the right information.

I am not saying that it's impossible, it's not likely to take what isn't yours, and it's given to you by your people. That is something I have said here and met with resistance and so be it. But don't think that I don't enjoy sharing in this wonderful experiance that the flamenco has to give and these websites have to offer. You are all very nice and wonderful people, and I admit that this post goes for me as well.....but let's face it, the flamenco is passed down.

Of course that's my opinion, but if it were any other way and I knew it I would be compelled to tell you, and out of respect. Did I hijack the thread? Maybe, but I said it once and I am not going to fight you over this. And you ask yourself this: what are we doing here on this website? Is this our culture? Have we the right?
Gato

If I am the enemy then let it be said, but cultural lineage is something you just cannot fake. WTF???



KenK -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 31 2009 8:04:56)

quote:

I am not saying that it's impossible, it's not likely to take what isn't yours, and it's given to you by your people. That is something I have said here and met with resistance and so be it. But don't think that I don't enjoy sharing in this wonderful experiance that the flamenco has to give and these websites have to offer. You are all very nice and wonderful people, and I admit that this post goes for me as well.....but let's face it, the flamenco is passed down.


If I am the enemy then let it be said, but cultural lineage is something you just cannot fake. WTF???

Hi Gato-

Let me say as a white guy, I agree w/ you.
I've had a few discussions about this as well.
People don't want to admit that this is true (or at least mostly true)
It's the same w/ any "folk" music including blues or jazz.
There's no substitute for being born into it.

KenK



Jim Opfer -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Mar. 31 2009 11:06:10)

Hi Michel,

I think the problem with this is that it sounds too full and a bit muddy. It's a long rumble sound with no feel for compas.
I started off playing by listening to LP's and back then this sound was common place.
I made my own version up and learned to play a continuous roll by playing a - m - i (down) followed by a - m - i (up).
This gives a bit of a 'dig' in the UP section and this sounded similar to what I heard on recordings. Of course I didn't know back then about the triplet rachao, using pulgar up stroke.
Give it a try.
Playing down stroke all the time seems pointless and painfull.

Cheers
Jim.



gato -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 16:18:16)

Well Ken, as a Californian Native American who thinks about this kind of stuff now and then and I say now and then because it's unpopular to tell people this, I am glad that you told me you agree; And how many white people would accept a gitano in their local rock scene anyway? Nada. So what I am saying is you've got to accept your cultural lineage and enjoy it and be proud by where you came from, and realize that it means a lot.

I'm not saying that it's impossible I am saying that I think it's unlikely, and I made my point and I feel so unpopular.....[&o] Remember this, I tell you the foro is forgiving. [;)] Keep your status quo and forget about it! [:D] I don't think that having foreign interests are a complete waste of time though. All I've got to say is for what I actually am, I don't fit in to a lot. I know about that! Where don't you fit in whomever or whatever you are?
Gary



Arash -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 17:41:05)

quote:

So what I am saying is you've got to

accept your cultural lineage


agree

quote:

and enjoy it


agree

quote:

and be proud by where you came from


I don't agree with this statement.

How can one be "proud" of something, for which one personally haven't done anything?
Don't take me wrong. Its not againts you. I hear this exact statement from 99% of all human
beeings in the world. But the word "proud" just doesn't make sence to me in this sentence.
It is pure chance where one is born and where one comes from.
So (IMO) there is nothing one can be proud of when we talk solely about ones origin (nothing else).
(this goes for all origins, be it black, white, yellow, purple, american, african, asian,
or whatever). I never understood when someone says: "I am proud to be a persian...." or
"i am proud to be an american". Just doesn't make any sence to me.
IMO you can only be proud of something you achieve and not for fate.

Of course you can be happy or glad to come from a specific country, but proud?



gato -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 18:05:03)

Ok you're right about that, my mistake, be proud also of your acomplishments, but really, that's not the matter I'm discussing. So I didn't include it and I have a mind like a steel trap. My mistake Arash. But, what I am saying is that we should be proud of our cultural lineage. That is a major step for people who deny what wonderful things that are a very large part of their perspective, while a lot of people deny them in search of new and different cultural perspectives. Play the flamenco, and enjoy it, and it's culture, but don't forget the culture that you come from.

Some people can see that with joy as they really get to know first of all their cultural heritage, because denial of ones cultural heritage is a denial of the self.
And yet, take in what ever you can, and be proud of everything about YOU your people, and this great thing of cultural experimentation can have first of all a perspective to grow.

When people are in denial, they are missing out on a lot and, without a natural cultural identifiacion, one will have a hard time accepting another. That's it Arash, I don't dissagree with you, rather, I think that accomplishments are built on a deep and honest identification whith the culture you came from, and then others.

If you hate where you came from, you then do have a problem! That of course if my perspective on this issue, and there is no way I am going to fight about it, if you see it another way, I just don't. I am proud of my people, and I will fight for my native cultural identity. It's all about personal freedom to be who you really are isn't it..........
Gary



Arash -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 18:26:18)

Cultural aspects are something different.
It is something you are influencing and practicing in your daily life and to which you contribute your part.

But only the fact that one was born somewhere, doesn't justify pride (IMO).

And not beeing proud about it, doesn't mean that you hate it or deny it!

You gladly take it on board and look what else there is in the world.

Remember, if you think this through to the end, we were all africans (acc. to Darwin)! [:D]

Ok, i don't want to convince you about anything.
It is just something we should think about ("pride" in relation to origin solely!).



gato -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 18:51:54)

Ok I can accept that but I still believe in what I said. I am not angry at you, myself or my people. I have acomplished a lot in my lifetime, and that has nothing to do with the arrogance that says that all people are the same. You might even get me to talk about Genus, but I am bored with the subject that you nailed to the cross, and I don't care because today, I am not on it.

Otherewise what's the difference? You could hate your people and still love another? No I don't think that, and I totally dissagree, I think that is dishonest and wayfaring, and a kind of supremacy in latency. There you go now, make sense of what I just said. I dare you. What's the difference, there are all sorts of people on the Internet trying to be something they are not.
Gary



a_arnold -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 19:10:04)

My teacher was a very traditional puro type, a student (like Sabicas) of the great Ramon Montoya. His name was Carlos Ramos (this was 45 years ago for me). He taught me how to do the c-a-m-i rasgueo, and there is a trick to learning it, passed down from Montoya himself. The first part should be done without a guitar!

Here it is:

(1) Learn to move your i and c fingers in opposing directions: When c curls toward your palm, i flicks out, and when i curls to the palm, c flicks out. Don't do this on a guitar, just practice moving those 2 fingers in opposite directions, don't even think about rasgueo, and don't worry about your other fingers: they will follow naturally. When this simple opposing motion is easy and natural then . . .
(2) . . . add the rasgueo. Now, don't just flick out c, let the others follow to make the rasgueo but continue that opposing motion, which should now be natural, and your c finger will naturally be in place and ready when your i finger finishes it's stroke.

The c-a-m-i rasgueo, done correctly, is machine-gun-like. One of the most stunning and effective uses is to finish a falseta by putting two c-a-m-i cycles between an up-thumb and a down-thumb, so it becomes

p-c-a-m-i-c-a-m-i-p and the count is
7------8-----9-----10

It is especially effective if you concentrate on about 4 strings rather than trying to hit all 6.

I find that when I teach it this way to my students, they get it within a week, and don't know what all the fuss was about.

I learned the trick of developing a fast, clean picado the same way. Those old puro guys were (still are) a gold mine of tricks for learning technique. And there are a bunch of tricks.

Tony Arnold



at_leo_87 -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 19:13:21)

quote:

because denial of ones cultural heritage is a denial of the self.

i dont identify with my culture. or build my character or who i am around it.
pride is a thing of the ego in my opinion. it can be built up easily and just as easily be torn down.
i know people who are very prideful about their culture. they end up learning more and more about their own culture, neglecting things that come from other parts of the world. they identify with their culture. then they end up stuck being exactly like everyone else in their culture and doing exactly what everyone else does. they're stuck repeating history. chained down by their culture.
if you take it further, it's this pride that causes arrogance. "my country is better than yours." arrogance leads to prejudice. prejudice leads to hate. etc.

people tell me i should be proud to be an american. what do you guys from other countries think about that?

not trying to disagree with you, gary. just want to toss in my 1 and a half cents.

edit: good post, tony. i just tried it in the air and the motion feels more natural already.



gato -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 21:21:09)

I agree with you leo, but people are quasi and culturally narcissistic over their cross cultural influences, and no I don't suffer from racial or social, or cultural inpropriety. I think people are valid unless they are a part of something say like the Nazis were during WW2. And that goes for a lot of ugly Americans who are really in to that kind of thing. But putting all of that aside, if you don't see your true self in your natural cultural environment how can you take culture from others? Does it make sense that people just like to be different, or are they repulsive to themselves due to their hate for what exists all around them? People have to ask themselves, why am I so in to the flamenco? Am I Spanish, am I a Gitano, am I a Moore? And what makes me so special that I can just go and master it with the limited resources that I may or may not have? 'Makes sense to me, otherwise this whole arguement is just me repeating my self over and over into someone elses redundancy, and because I don't have to encompass every moot point in every post I don't care any more! [&:]
Gary
But we can all get along can't we? [:D]



gato -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 21:28:27)

Oh I know, Rock n' Roll, that's it, yeah and I already knew about that a long time ago! [:D][:D][:D]



at_leo_87 -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 21:49:22)

quote:

But putting all of that aside, if you don't see your true self in your natural cultural environment how can you take culture from others?


we can learn from other cultures only if we learn from ours first. right? is this what you mean?

quote:

Does it make sense that people just like to be different, or are they repulsive to themselves due to their hate for what exists all around them?


neither. i dont try to be different. if i am different, it is just because i am. but i think i understand what you mean. examples would be self hating arabs, jews, etc. who hate their own people because of a few bad examples and they no longer want to be associated with them so they try to be different. am i understanding you correctly?

quote:

You've got to ask yourself, why am I so in to the flamenco? Am I Spanish, am I a Gitano, am I a Moore? And what makes me so special that I can just go and master it with the limited resources that I may or may not have?


im not sure why i'm so into flamenco. but i knowe for sure im definitely not spanish, gypsy, or moore. and you're absolutely right that non andalucians are at a disadvantage and are basically "handicapped" when learning flamenco. but when there's a will, there's a way. i mean, just look at the non spanish pros here, ricardo, jason, grisha, etc.

quote:

But we can all get along can't we?

we sure can! this is just an exchange of opinions for me. i hope you dont feel like your ideas are being attacked or devalued.

it's tough to have these kinds of debates online. 95% (or something like that) of language is communicated through the body and voice. with forums, we only get 5% across. and with the help of these: [:D][:D][:D][:D]



gato -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 21:58:23)

Oh well.....[;)]



John O. -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 23:08:15)

quote:

Remember, if you think this through to the end, we were all africans (acc. to Darwin)!


My theory of evolution is that Darwin was adopted.



John O. -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 23:41:26)

On a serious note, being born into it has a lot to do with it as well as having something in your blood, like black people and blues.

Another factor though is that if you talk to anyone who plays flamenco, blues, rock, whatever extremely well, they'll tell you it's all they do, the entire day. I recently spoke to a very good cajón player who told be he practises and rehearses an average of about 7 hours a day. Rafael Cortés is Gitano yes, but that alone of course is not enough - he practiced up to 10 hours a day growing up.

So it's very probable that if as a non-Gypsy, non-Spaniard you do nothing but practise flamenco the entire day, it still may be missing that special something, still it's inevitable that it will be very d@mn good.

I told this to a 13-year-old student of mine who's been learning about two months and suddenly a week later he could play the a-m-i-i no problem... [:D]

And another thing: life is precious, and anyone who spends so much of it dedicated to one thing is going to feel like it's theirs, no matter where they come from.



michel -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 23:44:07)

quote:

I think and important trick for getting it even and in rhythm with your normal compas strumming is to either start on or at least feel the beat on the index finger down stroke....so you don't have any odd rhythms that break the eveness and smoothness of sound.

cam-icam-icam-icam-i....


quote:

Here it is:

(1) Learn to move your i and c fingers in opposing directions: When c curls toward your palm, i flicks out, and when i curls to the palm, c flicks out. Don't do this on a guitar, just practice moving those 2 fingers in opposite directions, don't even think about rasgueo, and don't worry about your other fingers: they will follow naturally. When this simple opposing motion is easy and natural then . . .
(2) . . . add the rasgueo. Now, don't just flick out c, let the others follow to make the rasgueo but continue that opposing motion, which should now be natural, and your c finger will naturally be in place and ready when your i finger finishes it's stroke.

The c-a-m-i rasgueo, done correctly, is machine-gun-like. One of the most stunning and effective uses is to finish a falseta by putting two c-a-m-i cycles between an up-thumb and a down-thumb, so it becomes

p-c-a-m-i-c-a-m-i-p and the count is
7------8-----9-----10


thank you ricardo and tony, very helpful advices!

Gary i can understand some of your thoughts, but it's confusing to speak about cultural lineage, your own cultural identity and downstroke rasgueados in one thread, i know that the world is not a supermarket where you can take what you want, but i'm into guitar-playing,and that's a real part of my identity and i see it as a "bridge" to meet other cultures, or should i only play french "walse-musette" and only sing edith piaf songs because i was growing up in france?
Ok i give it a try "Sous le ciel de Paris s'envole une chanson Hum Hum...." [8|]



John O. -> RE: continuous c-a-m-i downstrokes (Apr. 1 2009 23:46:28)

Michel, you can probably play Gypsy Kings very well [;)]



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