A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Full Version)

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Ailsa -> A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 5:09:09)

Hi fellow beginners!! I've found this last challenge really helpful - OK I didn't do very well, but I learnt a lot from it, so I'd like us to organise more. However I'd like to suggest a couple of differences.

1. We can't expect people to keep giving prizes, the learning and improvement has to be your prize.
2. I don't particularly need judges' scores - the actual numbers. What I value are their comments.

Well you might say you can just upload something and ask for comments. That's true, but I really enjoyed the sort of community feeling of us all working on something together (don't forget we beginners were the ones laughing and holding hands as Pimientito put it! [:D])

So how about we beginners (and more people welcome to join) agree to work on something together, give ourselves a deadline of 5 weeks or so. And ask very kind people like Flo and Ricardo to give us some comments (pretty please [sm=kiss.gif][sm=kiss.gif]). The challenge is not winning, the challenge is being able to play it by the deadline.

Ideally I'd like to work on a differnt palo, maybe Solea? Does anyone have a Solea study that would be suitable?

Please join me! I can challenge myself - and frequently do! But it's much more fun to know others at a similar level are all working on the same thing. [:)]



Florian -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 5:24:31)

Ole [:D] !! you go Ailsa..very true everything you say..u take control and charge..u dont need me or anyone else to organise stuff like this for you guys...this is your forum...take charge do it for yourselfs and get what you want to get out of it..

there was seven of you, u can get organized..if u wanna make it extra fun too all chip in 5 or 2 bucs ( noone will miss that) each in through paypal (really eazy to setup) and buy a nice prize ( a flamenco book, a tab book, a dvd, an album) for a litlle extra drive..

encourage, inspire and push echother

no more spectating and sideline watching



Ailsa -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 5:37:48)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Florian
..u dont need me or anyone else to organise stuff like this for you guys...


Oh errr... yeah. Though I was sort of hoping you might be able to suggest a nice bit of solea for us to work on[;)]

quote:


there was seven of you..if u wanna make it extra fun too all donate something or put in 5 or 2 bucs each in through paypal (really eazy to setup) and buy a nice prize ( a flamenco book , a dvd, an album) for a litlle extra drive..


Yeah that's a great idea! I've got a paypal account and could organise that. And everyone always needs yet another CD!! I know I do...



Florian -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 5:41:26)

quote:

Oh errr... yeah. Though I was sort of hoping you might be able to suggest a nice bit of solea for us to work on


oh ..sure, ofcourse..id be honoured too...get it organised and il scan around for something nice and practical



domzo -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 5:49:24)

Ailsa - you're mad for it!

But yes another challenge is a good idea now we have the momentum... the last one was fun but I was a bit slapdash and did **VERY** **VERY** badly and would like to put considerably more effort into this one... [:D] [:D]

Even though I did **VERY** **VERY** badly, the feedback is invaluable and appreciated.

Solea sounds good to me...



gj Michelob -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 5:49:25)

Perhaps we could combine the idea you propose, Alisa, with spirit of competition, which operates marvels in compelling of everyone a more focused performance:

Instead of a one-shot competition, we could devise a “tournament”, say over 6 months. Each month a new challenge. Comments and criticism will serve as guidance to improve each time, but scores are kept and totaled at the end of the 6 rounds, to calculate the winning score.

Perhaps we could also have people pay a small entry fee (really small) to contribute to the financial up-keeping and maintenance of the Forum. So by competing, judging and providing ancillary services (such as uploading files) we all contribute to the welfare of the Forum.

A few weeks ago a thread threatened (forgive the sound-clash) that the Forum could be in peril, should its generous founder experience any financial hardship. On that note of course, it crossed my mind that one should pay a membership fee, so to ensure this wonderful place does not fail…. But I do not know how people would feel about that.



val -> [Deleted] (Mar. 5 2009 5:49:55)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:39:11



Ailsa -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 5:56:02)

Thanks Val, if they are both very short the challenge could be to do them both.

Or what about that Farruca you were working on last year? You sent the sound files of that to me and I'm ashamed to say I never got round to looking at it....[&o]

Anyway, I just think a contrast to the buleria would be good.



kozz -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 6:41:49)

Great!
I'll like the ideas very much and it keeps you motivated!
The best gift you can get is the advise, though a guitarra from Anders would be nice also [:D].

Count me in for the next challenge.



val -> [Deleted] (Mar. 5 2009 7:01:59)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:38:47



at_leo_87 -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 8:26:04)

i can get solea studies from the graf-martinez books.
the great thing is that i already scanned the tabs onto my computer. and the studies are substantial by themselves, meaning they sound like a real solea and not just a study.

the idea of a different palo for each cycle of competition is an awesome idea. it'll help us become well rounded flamencos.

quote:

On that note of course, it crossed my mind that one should pay a membership fee, so to ensure this wonderful place does not fail…. But I do not know how people would feel about that.


i think your idea has great merit.
we accomplish many things in one shot. (competition and all the benefits that come with it ie. a sense of community, new material to learn, etc plus money to support the forum)

but if people are reluctant to pay a fee to enter the competition, maybe we should just do a quarterly or yearly fund raiser. just like ad free radio and t.v. stations do. a little from all of us can go a long way.



henrym3483 -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 8:37:29)

paco serrano's book has some pretty nice solea falsetas, one with a diminished pulgar scale in it, the others have both pulgar and arpeggio for the remate. if anyone wants it i can scan or write out a copy.



Ailsa -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 8:53:42)

I'm so pleased some of you are interested! I had an awful feeling I might be left playing on my own![:)]

I don't have the graf-martinez or paco serrano. Are they the right sort of level? In other words hard enough work to stretch, but not completely impossible!

And I like the idea of learning something that sounds like a real solea.

I'm going to upload one suggestion in the Uploads section - it's taken from Merengue de Cordoba's Encuentro (hope I'm not breaking any copyright rules as it's just an extract) so I've got the tab as well. Some of this sounds very easy, but I bet getting all those rasgueados sounding really clean would require some practise.

Anyway I don't mind if someone else has another suggestion. Let me know what you guys think.



henrym3483 -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 9:01:47)

the paco serrano falsetas are quite doable if you put in the effort, the diminished pulgar scale is well worth it though. really nice falseta, there are a number ligados and a 3 string barr but it would be a worthwhile falseta to learn.



Ailsa -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 9:22:03)

Could you upload a bit Henry - it sounds really cool!



gj Michelob -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 9:54:41)

quote:

i think your idea has great merit.
we accomplish many things in one shot. (competition and all the benefits that come with it ie. a sense of community, new material to learn, etc plus money to support the forum)

but if people are reluctant to pay a fee to enter the competition, maybe we should just do a quarterly or yearly fund raiser. just like ad free radio and t.v. stations do. a little from all of us can go a long way.


I like the fund-raising idea.

Ron what do you think, can we have a sense of what expenditure the Forum generates, and how we can all help.



aleksi -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 10:09:41)

wow, this is very good idea. The previous challange gave me ideas for my playing so Im totally thumps up with the new one. Now I feel I would even have the patience for the tournament. One palo/ one month some good, doable compas or falseta that can be used.

One part could be to accompany abit of singing. Some easy piece of song and we would work our way with that. It would be extremely useful skil to learn. What do you think?



Ailsa -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 10:50:51)

OK so far we have:

Ailsa
Dom
Val
Kozz
Andresito
Aleksi
Ruispelto

Now we just need to decide what to work on and agree a deadline for sometime in April.

People who have agreed to be judges:
Jason
Florian
Ron.M
Doitsujin
Ricardo
Kate

Do you think we need the protection of anonymity with this one?



Ron.M -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 11:43:53)

quote:

I like the fund-raising idea.

Ron what do you think, can we have a sense of what expenditure the Forum generates, and how we can all help.


Hi gj,

I have suggested this before, but actually, on thinking about it, there are pros and cons.

If we make a subscription charge, then this makes the site exclusive only to those who wish to pay the subscription and thus lose the serendipity effect of chance members, much like "TV on Demand" allows you to watch heaps of stuff you like, with no chance of ever being introduced to something that you never dreamt or actually thought you would like. (The curse of this age IMO)

Also when member become "shareholders", they can then DEMAND a service which they think is fit and complain when that service does not meet their standard either in features or content, instead of using their time and persuasion to implement change.

The beauty of having a non-participating "benefactor" IMO, is that it allows freedom of participation based on the morality of being enthused by the subject, free exchange of information and help to other members, being respectful to other members and sharing a common sense of friendship.

If we turn ForoFlamenco into a kind of "business", then we lose this ideal IMO.

Remember it's not just money... (at the end of the day..the curse of all things!)
There is also the technical work needed from time to time, to sort out glitches and deal with the problems with the hosting service.

Simon has taken the initiative to take advantage of Google Ads and put the proceeds of his Guitarrero DVD, (which was done as a labour of love and not a commercial proposition) towards the upkeep of the Forum, so that he is not too much out of pocket and so long as he is working, he is happy to see his original concept of ForoFlamenco grow and have a significant effect on the lives of ordinary Flamenco fans worldwide.

True philanthropy is a good ideal in this present world and that's why it saddens me when the Forum gets in a mess with arguments and fall-outs and Simon starts getting a lot of emails and complaints about stuff.

If it ever gets to the stage when he can no longer finance it, then we will have to think again.

But in the meantime, save your money...your aficion is more appreciated.

The only thing asked is to donate your valuable time to helping others and keeping the Forum a happy place to come to.

I do like the idea of a separate Forum Prize and Projects fund, which could be collected via PayPal with a published audit of funds received, in order to enhance future challenges etc.
I see it as being financed by voluntary donations of no more than $10, much like the limits on political party funding, so that nobody can claim special treatment due to their generous donation.

If someone (perhaps gj) would like to be Treasurer, then I'm all for it!

cheers,

Ron



val -> [Deleted] (Mar. 5 2009 11:57:01)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:38:34



Ailsa -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 12:14:27)

I think in theory accompanying dance could work. After all the dancer is in charge and the guitarist just has to follow [:D][:D]

But technnically how would it work? I'm not sure I would know how to add a new sound track, correctly sync-ed, to a video.

I'm not dismissing it, just think it might be in the too difficult box until we've got the systems sorted out. Maybe accompaniment could be the next stage. Organised by someone with more technical know-how than me!



Ron.M -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 12:24:18)

quote:

But technnically how would it work? I'm not sure I would know how to add a new sound track, correctly sync-ed, to a video.


Hi Ailsa and Val,

Yeah, I think it could be done.

You would just have to dance to a click-track and post the video.

Interesting idea!

cheers,

Ron



val -> [Deleted] (Mar. 5 2009 12:26:02)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:38:23



Ailsa -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 12:28:02)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron.M

quote:

But technnically how would it work? I'm not sure I would know how to add a new sound track, correctly sync-ed, to a video.


Yeah, I think it could be done.

You would just have to dance to a click-track and post the video.



OK brill,

Well let me have a think about what palo I could do and that can be the NEXT challenge!!
[:D]

Ron were you thinking that we would just put up some dance to a loop and then the guitarists could play whatever appropriate, rather than a set piece?



at_leo_87 -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 12:51:34)

quote:

OK so far we have:

Ailsa
Dom
Val
Kozz
At_leo_87
Aleksi


oh! i actually cant play guitar for another 2-5 months. but in the mean time, i'll be more than happy to submit tabs and sound files and maybe to help organize. [:)]

the soleares i have in mind range from short and easy to long and pretty challenging. it involves a lot of pulgar and rasgueado work. i'll upload a section in a bit to give an idea.



andresito -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 12:58:32)

Count me in Ailsa! Solea would be good, as we should try a different form each challenge, right? [:)]



Ailsa -> RE: A NEW BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 13:03:45)

Oh Sorry at-leo, I must have misunderstood. Yes of course be involved however you want, that's completely cool.

Yay Andresito! Welcome buddy!



Ailsa -> YET ANOTHER BEGINNERS CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 13:09:09)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ailsa

Well let me have a think about what palo I could do and that can be the NEXT challenge!!
[:D]


OK I've thought about it! I could do an entrada, letra and subida of an Alegrias. Obviously for the subida I would have to lose the click track or we'd all get very confused. [&:]

I would give a short explanation, as I would to a new guitarist of what I was planning to do, perhaps demonstrate a llamada so everyone can recognise when a change is coming.

Thoughts?



val -> [Deleted] (Mar. 5 2009 13:42:31)

Post has been moved to the Recycle Bin at Nov. 8 2010 13:38:09



Ailsa -> ACCOMPANYING DANCE CHALLENGE? (Mar. 5 2009 14:24:40)

No the only Solea I do is with bata de cola.

I'd quite like to keep beginners solea challenge separate for now. Having just been thinking it through, I'm wondering if accompanying is at the next level, maybe not beginners at all. Accompanying is not just a case of playing something you know but being so familiar with playing you can adapt to what the dancer is doing. You can't just play the piece you have learnt because the dancer might change what he or she does, add extra bits in, drop other parts, go faster than usual, or any other manner of things!

I think we should keep the beginners Solea as learning a set piece. And if we get any interest in an accompanying dance challenge we can decide what to do. I suggested Alegrias because it has lots of different sections at different speeds and it can be difficult to make sure you are playing the right bit for the dancer at the right time.



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