How shall we hold it?

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How shall we hold it?

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gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

How shall we hold it?

With very few exceptions, it seems that most Flamencos these days hold their guitars upon their crossed legs, alla “Paco de Lucia”. I have been alternating such position with the traditional alla “Paco Pena”, pivoting upon one leg. In the latter position I feel as if my left hand is freer to stretch more openly and widely, my right hand lighter on the strings and less fatigued, while generally the tone of the guitar appears to sound more brilliant.

However yet, and perhaps because of the fantastic four on my watch, Paco De Lucia, Gerardo Nunez, Vicente Amigo and (last, but by no means least) Tomatito, I am confused by a vain perception that it may just be“cooler” to hold it alla De Lucia.

Any recommendations or reminders of rules and traditions I am ignorant about?

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2008 11:31:16

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

I personally switch back and forth between the two positions, and sometimes cross even the other leg, and also advise that during a performance, moving as much as possible is physically better for you than remaining in a fixed position. I see benefits to both ways of sitting and can't recommend a "best" position. Using a footstool is good too but I personally don't do that.

Ricardo

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2008 14:35:17

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Ricardo)

Ironic that you answer, Ricardo, for in fact you prompted my question. I noticed on a few photographs you posted on facebook, that you hold the guitar alla "Pena", which is quite a departure from all your videos where instead you hold it alla "De Lucia".

Your answer is a relief somehow. I had become independently convinced that one should indeed alternate positions. To have it from a traditionalist as you are famous to be, is a blessing that i am doing it right.

Thank you as always for your kind teachings.
dearly,

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2008 14:43:30

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

If I could hold the guitar trad style I definitely would. I like the feel of the guitar up high and close to the body, and aesthetically that’s the position that most appeals to me. But I’m very long-armed and there’s no way I can even get close to a functional hand position if I hold the guitar that way. I switch around between “Paco Style”, legs fully crossed over- “Girly Style”, I suppose, and the guitar resting over the thigh with both feet on the floor, steel-string style.

I think there’s certainly some hero-worship at play in the ubiquity of PDL style, which at this point, has basically become the new traditional style.

Whatever works for ya, works for ya.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2008 15:13:48

srshea

Posts: 833
Joined: Oct. 29 2006
From: Olympia, WA in the Great Pacific Northwest

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

This one's new to me (actually, I've only seen it in old-timey pictures; never actually seen someone play like this):

Trad/between-the-legs style from Nino Jero.

Man, those folks are having a good time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 20 2008 22:51:47

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

I am confused by a vain perception that it may just be“cooler” to hold it alla De Lucia.

Its really cool to be relaxed and play well, so my advice would be to have that as a reference point instead of some photos or videos.

The same with electrical guitar. It looks cool to have it haning really low, but.... man, its complicated for the left hand. But sometimes you have to suffer. If you play Punk Rock you´ll never be accepted if you hold the guitar in a high jazzy style and you´ll have less succes with the groupies as well.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2008 0:16:10

toquegitano

Posts: 4
Joined: Mar. 16 2008

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Heya,

quote:

If you play Punk Rock you´ll never be accepted if you hold the guitar in a high jazzy style and you´ll have less succes with the groupies as well.

Now, wait, why's that? At least then u don't have a guitar hanging in the way :D

@topic: Well, agree whith most ppl here, whatever position is comfortable to you and whatever provides an optimal approach from your body to the strings is good.

Theres never THAT ultimate position (how i hated these discussions during my classical studies at the conservatory...), because everybody is built different/ has a different bodyfeeling/ muscletension (dunno the proper terms in english :P).

Personally, i like switching between positions while performing; while practising technical stuff, i still like the classical position. Mostly i use the "Paco style" position too, it just feels comfortable.

greetz,
gitano

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2008 1:46:07

Gummy

Posts: 495
Joined: Nov. 27 2005
From: North Carolina, USA

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to srshea)

That's cool. He is holdint it almost like a shotgun. My legs are not limber enough for Paco style. I wish I could do it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 21 2008 4:36:43

Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

Hi gj

I learned from start to hold the guitar traditional style and now I don't feel comfortable any other way. I think it's really important to feel the vibrations through the back of the guitar, makes for a more direct contact with the sound.
For a change, I sometimes put my right ankle on my left knee, still holding the guitar trad. Backside on chair and left foot on the ground. probably bad idea for my posture but I like it.

Jim.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2008 10:23:30

DavidT

Posts: 181
Joined: Mar. 17 2005
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Jim Opfer)

How do you guys [who hold guitars Paco Pena style] keep the guitars firm on your thigh? The guitar appears to slip off your thigh easily. I guess you have to use your inner arm to clamp the guitar to your side to keep it firm. Don't you have to use your left arm to support the guitar to keep it stay up.

Dave

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2008 11:12:29

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

Dave

The easyest way is to put some kind of a rubber cloth on the thigh. This way it doesnt slip and you can also hold the guitar with the headstock lower, which I find to be a big advantage.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2008 13:02:51

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Jim Opfer)

Hi Jim, good to hear from you. I noticed on youtube how occasionally you rest one ankle on the opposite knee. I (emulated you) have been doing that as well.

I am slowly but surely getting used to the traditional position after the usual initial struggle. It is generally more comfortable and -as i also wrote- find that tone improves and agree that it keeps me in closer proximity with sound and vibrations.

I, however, also enjoy shifting the guitar back alla De Lucia, but interestingly i find that my entire posture improves if i allow such switch to occur after holding it the traditional fashion first.

DavidT, just dedicate 10 minutes of your practice to play in the traditional position. At first you will be bending over the guitar, holding it tight with your right arm, incapable of any flexible movement and experiencing occasional pins and needles.... however, and naturally so, you will find yourself holding it quite effortlessly after about a week of such unpleasant struggle. It is so worth it, though, really. The more i do it the more i seem to improve the lightness of my touch and acquire greater freedom and dexterity on my right hand.

In New York, I have been playing my Navarro student and it sounds amazing when held gingerly as the traditional position forces you to. I leave for SF tomorrow and look forward to revisit my Conde and Vazquez in this new position. 'missed them so much.

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2008 13:19:40

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

the problem for me with traditional style is that picados become hard and uncomfortable on bass strings. I have to bend my wrist a little. with the paco de lucia style, picados are easy but the neck is too low and it's hard for my left hand. i like the neck high.

does anybody use classical/sabicas position? it's comfortable for both left and right hands but i just never use it for some reason.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2008 14:00:55

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to at_leo_87) 1 votes

1 votes

quote:

does anybody use classical/sabicas position? it's comfortable for both left and right hands but i just never use it for some reason.

I started out using this position and still do--even when I play electric if I'm seated I hold the guitar this way and put my left foot on top of my right foot.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2008 15:09:26

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

I do the same whenever I play electric. Except I lift up my left heel and balance on the ball of my foot. It just locks in place and I forget about it.

If I play a show and have to wear a strap, I wear it high like a dork. I don't care because once they hear that I don't just play power chords they shut up. I'll even sit down on my amp if I get lazy.

I heard one of the guys from blink 182 had to get surgery on his back because he wore his strap so damn low.

So yeah, back to the point. I think it's best to do whatever is comfortable rather than fashionable.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2008 16:08:28

ToqueNW

Posts: 16
Joined: Nov. 20 2008
From: Seattle

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to at_leo_87)

Good discussion here so far. I feel compelled to put a word in for the footstool. I play mostly in the PDL position, but an time I'm going to be playing for more than an hour or so (e.g. dance classes), I'll bring a footstool with me and just leave it set up and in position. I don't use it much, but it's good to have there just to change position every once in a while (I put my right foot on it).

Also, when I sit down to practice, I usually start out with the footstool (in the Sabicas position) to warm up. After a half hour or so I usually go PDL. I also practice (at home) on a chair that's easy to adjust height-wise. If you watch Sabicas, you'll notice that his left leg is really high. Easier to do with a low seat. (Though higher is better--for me anyway--for the PDL position).

For what it's worth, I saw PDL in Vancouver a few years ago; he had a footstool on stage. I don't remember if he used it (I wasn't watching his feet, after all), but I'm sure that's where I got the idea.

Cheers,
Andy

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 22 2008 20:39:11

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

Here is an other one I might do, not the easiest but I know one other friend of mine that sits this way. Obviously Tomatito does not always use this position but it is really working for him here.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2008 6:52:24

Taranto

Posts: 213
Joined: Apr. 7 2005

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

Here is an other one I might do, not the easiest but I know one other friend of mine that sits this way. Obviously Tomatito does not always use this position but it is really working for him here.

That's only if you have a thick di*k and can't really cross legs.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2008 8:07:30

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob) 1 votes

1 votes

Thats the way many players here in Huelva holds the guitar. The advantage is that you have both feet on the ground and can do tapping with both. The disadvantage is that it doesnt really work to well if you are more than 175cm (5.8")

I really prefer to have both feet on the ground, but the normal trad position I dont like. The head is to high and the relationship right hand/ guitar doesnt feel confortable to me. Maybe because of height (183cm)

with the rubber cloth between the guitar and the thigh, I can lower the neck and the right hand position is a lot better.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 23 2008 9:15:06

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

Could this have captured the very moment when Paco de Lucia shifted the guitar from the Trad position to what is now known as "alla Paco De Lucia" (PDL)position: between 1:00 and 1:10 min.:

Alternating really helps, but the trad position -however stiff and uncool- greatly releives pressure from the right hand and improves legs circulation, at least in my case. I tried the Tomatito "both feet on the floor" and it left me with a rather unhealthy backache... I should have listened to Ricardo's disclaimer !!

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2008 8:19:20

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob) 1 votes

1 votes

This with being cool or uncool is a concept in your brain. Nothing else.

Look at these two trad. position performers. Do you think they are uncool???

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2008 9:27:30

Taranto

Posts: 213
Joined: Apr. 7 2005

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Could this have captured the very moment when Paco de Lucia shifted the guitar from the Trad position to what is now known as "alla Paco De Lucia" (PDL)position: between 1:00 and 1:10 min.

Yes Mike that's the historical moment.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2008 9:33:14

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

This with being cool or uncool is a concept in your brain. Nothing else.

Look at these two trad. position performers. Do you think they are uncool???

No need to stick to just one way.

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CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2008 10:09:56

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Taranto)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Taranto

quote:

Here is an other one I might do, not the easiest but I know one other friend of mine that sits this way. Obviously Tomatito does not always use this position but it is really working for him here.

That's only if you have a thick di*k and can't really cross legs.

Really that can be a problem! Haven't any of you guys sat down to play and were like "Whoa, that is not going to work for a whole song!"

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2008 10:11:54

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

This with being cool or uncool is a concept in your brain. Nothing else.
Look at these two trad. position performers. Do you think they are uncool???

That almost sounded like a scolding tone (??) but you are not entirely wrong, Anders, it is quite shallow of me to dwell on the cosmetics of the position (save for the giggling I aroused in the girls at my office when I played a piece in the traditional position as they felt i looked like "Mariachi"....)
Regardless, the Pepe Cepero's video is a keeper, i loved it.

Ricardo... and Taranto, [you are funny, guys] although not so PC.... at this point, who would submit to the negative inference the Foro would draw of anyone innocently stating that he does not experience such discomfort?

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2008 11:05:59

gj Michelob

Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

Anaders: with the rubber cloth between the guitar and the thigh, I can lower the neck and the right hand position is a lot better.

What kind of cloth/mat is this, and is it what you are using? I want to give it a try as well... thank you.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Acoustic-Classical-Flamenco-Guitar-Non-Slip-Lap-Mat-NEW_W0QQitemZ370123239628QQcmdZViewItemQQptZGuitar_Accessories?hash=item370123239628&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1209%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318%7C301%3A1%7C293%3A4%7C294%3A50

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gj Michelob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 27 2008 12:11:06

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

That almost sounded like a scolding tone (??) but you are not entirely wrong, Anders, it is quite shallow of me to dwell on the cosmetics of the position (save for the giggling I aroused in the girls at my office when I played a piece in the traditional position as they felt i looked like "Mariachi"....)
Regardless, the Pepe Cepero's video is a keeper, i loved it.

Your focus is wrong. The girls giggle because when you sit in trad. position, they can se the "package" and this they like.

I´m glad you liked the video with M. Soto Sordera and Cepero. Those two together is something that really moves me. Jerez puru y duro. Cepero has such a nice touch when playing with cante.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2008 1:51:41

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

What kind of cloth/mat is this, and is it what you are using? I want to give it a try as well... thank you.

Yes this will work. But the guy doesnt use it. He sits in a "normal" trad position with the headstock high.

Here´s a photo this morning (early) of me with my guitar and a sleepy dog.
Look at the difference. The headstock is lower and the guitar is positioned more to the left (my right side), giving a better lift on my right arm. I can sit like that for hours. No problem.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2008 1:58:42

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

The rubber cloth is just a cheap piece from my local hardware store.

Images are resized automatically to a maximum width of 800px

Attachment (1)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2008 2:01:17

Taranto

Posts: 213
Joined: Apr. 7 2005

RE: How shall we hold it? (in reply to gj Michelob)

quote:

Ricardo... and Taranto, [you are funny, guys] although not so PC.... at this point, who would submit to the negative inference the Foro would draw of anyone innocently stating that he does not experience such discomfort?

I would if that was the case with me but mine is in fact too thick. That's why I sit in traditional position with legs wide open.

How about you Mike? Got anything to confess?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 28 2008 2:07:08

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