Zero Fret

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Zero Fret

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krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

Zero Fret

I know someone with a Bellido with a zero fret. Its a great guitar!

Zero-frets seem to have their pros and cons. On the plus side the extra fret eliminates intonation or action problems caused by wear at the nut. It also produces the same tone for open strings as fretted notes, so open chords are more even in volume and tone with barred chords. But the zero-fret will probably wear quicker than any other fret because it is always in contact with the strings. It also makes for easy nut set up.

Why don't more makers use them? Is it tradition again? or maybe these advantages are just not considered worth it?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 13 2008 23:45:43

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

i always wondered what's the purpose of the zero fret. never thought about the idea of being able to produce the same tone with open notes as with fretted ones. that's a good point. i see them more often with older steel strings.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2008 6:51:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

I did not think the string, or open strings SIT on the zero fret like a nut. I always thought the zero fret was after the fact to fix a scale or intonation mistake, without having to scrap the neck design etc.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2008 8:52:45

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to Ricardo)

i have a zero fret guitar, it acts as a nut

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2008 12:19:25

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

I´ve tried various guitars with 0fret, mostly M bellidos and I dont get the point.
I cant hear a better sound. It wont sound like a fretted note because there is not a finger behind the fret and the zero fret wears a lot faster than the other frets because of string break angle and because the strings move above it when you tune. Besides fine adjustment of the nut is much more complicated and the fingerboard and neck will have to be some 5mm longer meaning poorer balance of the instrument.

As you can see, I´m 100% negative

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2008 22:59:06

krichards

Posts: 597
Joined: Jan. 14 2007
From: York, England

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Besides fine adjustment of the nut is much more complicated

I didn't think there was any fine adjustment?
I thought the nut just acted as a string guide so it should be easier to setup?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 14 2008 23:45:54

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

fine adjustment of the string height at the nut.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2008 5:18:28

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

Supposedly the 0fret ensures that all strings are at equal height and augments sustain ...

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El aficionado solitario
Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2008 12:32:52

at_leo_87

Posts: 3055
Joined: Aug. 30 2008
From: Boston, MA, U.S.A

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

what happens if one were to remove the zero fret?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2008 15:39:48

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to at_leo_87)

quote:

ORIGINAL: at_leo_87

what happens if one were to remove the zero fret?

The open strings would be out of tune (flat) relative to any fretted notes.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 15 2008 18:11:38

sig

Posts: 296
Joined: Nov. 7 2007
From: Wisconsin

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

Last year there was a Gibson Flamenco for sale on Ebay which had a 0 fret. I was mildly interested and found out that it was actually close to where I live but unfortunately I didn't get a chance to actually play it plus they wanted around $3,500. I did some checking on it and it appears that Gibson made a few Flamenco's back in the mid-sixties trying to capitalize on what I was told was a surge in interest in Flamenco. Until I saw that guitar I didn't realize guitars were made with 0 frets. I don't see any advantage to having it there...
Sig--

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Dec. 16 2008 6:20:13

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to sig)

http://www.rosetteguitarproducts.com/zero-fret-for-classical-guitar/

Are thoughts today the same as they were 8 years ago?

I came across this and I'm just wondering if I want to get one or not... What do y'all suggest? Luthiers? Andy - if I'm going to get one, you'll be the one fitting it for me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 17 2016 19:15:38

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to rombsix)

I have zeroglide nuts on my electrics. I like them quite a bit and I think they are well worth it if only for better tuning stability

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 17 2016 19:49:39

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

Some fellows tried it and said it's very good.
The zero fret is a good option provided you choose a fret a little higher than the other frets. Nowadays it's easy to find whatever kind of fret.
One of the reasons why it disappeared is because Segovia liked higher strings at the zero position and he preferred the nut therefore.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2016 7:22:19

Ricardo

Posts: 14806
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to rombsix)

I have a quick easy conversion for your guitar if you want a zero fret...use a capo/cejilla. If you want be wise guy about the transposition, tune down. If you want to be smart about string tension, use higher tension strings...etc etc...

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 18 2016 23:30:33

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to rombsix)

I'm with Ricardo on this.

If you must have a zero fret, Zero Glide looks a viable retrofit solution but totally unnecessary if you want a zero fret on a new guitar. The picture (M Bellido) shows that your luthier will also give you the additional benefit of a bit more space for your fingers!

Rob

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2016 9:35:07

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to RobJe)

OK Ricardo - I get it.

quote:

The picture (M Bellido) shows that your luthier will also give you the additional benefit of a bit more space for your fingers!

What do you mean exactly?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2016 16:07:05

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to rombsix)

quote:

What do you mean exactly?

The Zero Glide design has the extra fret touching the nut. If you just have an ordinary extra fret fitted there can (probably must) be a short distance between it and the nut. One of the claims for the zero fret is that it improves playability. If you are trying to cram three fingers behind the first fret the nut can be a bit annoying if you have old bent fingers like mine! A zero fret displaced from the nut can help, With a capo the problem disappears.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2016 18:14:44

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

The Zero Glide design has the extra fret touching the nut. If you just have an ordinary extra fret fitted there can (probably must) be a short distance between it and the nut. One of the claims for the zero fret is that it improves playability. If you are trying to cram three fingers behind the first fret the nut can be a bit annoying if you have old bent fingers like mine! A zero fret displaced from the nut can help, With a capo the problem disappears.

I thought I got what you were saying, but I re-read it multiple times and I still don't get it. Please, can you try to explain in another way? It sounds like you're talking about the distance between the zero fret and the first fret being shorter in the zero-glide design as compared to longer in the Bellido design. What difference does this distance make?

If the distance is longer (zero-glide), then you have more room to place multiple fingers between the zero fret and the first fret, so the way I see it, the zero-glide design should allow more room for your fingers.

What difference does it make if the barrier to your fingers is the nut or the zero fret? They're both physical impediments...

Am I misunderstanding?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2016 19:29:09

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to rombsix)

Try holding down strings 5, 3 and to with fingers i, m, a at the first fret. When I do it on a guitar with no zero fret, my fingers are a little obstructed by the nut. With the Zeroglide designed for classical/flamenco guitars (picture on left) the nut would be still quite close to the fingers. With the Bellido construction the nut would be further away from the fingers. I think that the nut is more of an obstruction than a fret.

Rob

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2016 20:44:00

rombsix

Posts: 7808
Joined: Jan. 11 2006
From: Beirut, Lebanon

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to RobJe)

Oh, I see.

Thanks for being patient with me.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 19 2016 20:57:29

constructordeguitarras

Posts: 1675
Joined: Jan. 29 2012
From: Seattle, Washington, USA

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

I have thought about it. But the beauty of the traditions of Spanish guitars is very important to me. And I considered the disadvantages you mention.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 20 2016 13:52:19

pundi64

Posts: 234
Joined: Jul. 29 2016
From: Thailand

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

For those who are not familiar with a zero feted guitar, here is a small pic of such a guitars fingeboard

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Sep. 26 2016 8:00:21

anouhouwa

Posts: 5
Joined: Feb. 22 2017

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

The zero fret is typically european, it was invented to save time at the production, overall the workers could not make a handmade nut, which needs to be skilled and take a quite long time to make it etc.. So the zero fret was not thinken to give some advantages, it was only thinken as an industrial technic to reduce the production time.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2017 7:53:58

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

It was quite common in Europe as often seen in the Viennese guitar. That's why Hauser I was familiar with this feature.
One of the reasons why it was dismissed is that maestro Segovia was very influential with his tecnique lessons and he firmly believed the string must be quite high over the fretboard at the nut position.
The 0 fret is now used as a standard by Luca Waldner both for tone reasons and because he thinks the whole thing just works better.
The nut sets the spacing between strings, the fret sets the action at the nut. That's it.
I don' have a clear opinion about it.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2017 9:13:15

estebanana

Posts: 9351
Joined: Oct. 16 2009

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

Zero frets are dumb.

The zero fret homogenizes the sound of the guitar- only anal retentive unimaginative people want all the strings to sound the same. The beauty of the guitar sound is the difference between an open string color and a closed string color. Only control freaks don't recognize that. That is what Segovia understood. And everyone else with ears.

The zero fret should be cast into the dust bin of history.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2017 11:16:03

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to estebanana)

quote:

ORIGINAL: estebanana

Zero frets are dumb.

The zero fret homogenizes the sound of the guitar- only anal retentive unimaginative people want all the strings to sound the same. The beauty of the guitar sound is the difference between an open string color and a closed string color. Only control freaks don't recognize that. That is what Segovia understood. And everyone else with ears.

The zero fret should be cast into the dust bin of history.

I can see how that could make sense in the classical world. But once your cantaor has said "capo at the 4th" whether you have a zero fret or not is immaterial - apart from a small additional weight of a slightly longer neck.

@Rob, as for chords that are easier with a zero fret, you clearly need to practice them with chunkier capos - afterwards nuts will feel so free.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2017 11:28:47

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to Dudnote)

quote:

@Rob, as for chords that are easier with a zero fret, you clearly need to practice them with chunkier capos - afterwards nuts will feel so free.

I have never said that I wanted a zero fret. I was just making suggestions about possible merits. I suppose it's a non-issue really - there is no real demand from flamenco guitarists as far as I know. If you really want one you will be able to find a luthier to oblige - but it is best to go after dark wearing a false beard in case Stephen catches you!

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2017 11:46:07

Dudnote

Posts: 1805
Joined: Nov. 13 2007

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to RobJe)

quote:

@Robe
but it is best to go after dark wearing a false beard in case Stephen catches you!

Blasphimous zero frets and false beards - are there any women here today?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2017 12:37:41

Echi

Posts: 1132
Joined: Jan. 11 2013

RE: Zero Fret (in reply to krichards)

quote:

The zero fret homogenizes the sound of the guitar- only anal retentive unimaginative people want all the strings to sound the same. The beauty of the guitar sound is the difference between an open string color and a closed string color. Only control freaks don't recognize that. That is what Segovia understood. And everyone else with ears.

It's still not clear to me if it definitely does something (as to homogenize the sound of the guitar) or it doesn't (or just a little), as Anders seems to think.
Both Waldner and Bellido are people aiming to make an e expressive and alive kind of guitar.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 23 2017 13:42:52