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Do all new guitars need adjustments or is it just me?
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
Do all new guitars need adjustments ...
Save for my inseparable Conde Hermanos AF25/R, which came perfectly set and serves as my standard by which I judge all instruments, I find that all new guitars I touch, including other Condes, require lowering the action adjustments, sanding and rounding the frets and even -in one istance- neck adjustments.... is it just that I am too fastidious about these, or most luthiers will leave it to the "buyer" to further his particular needs and customize these items to his liking?
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to gj Michelob)
In general, most luthiers do not know who will be playing their guitar. If he has not been commissioned personally by the guitarist. Most leave the action a little high in order for the guitarist to lower it if he wants too. Not everyone wants their action low.
Guitars with flat frets or any type of fret problem tells me that the luthier just rushed his work. As Anders said, leaving a sloppy setup. I understand that most guitars are handmade and there will always be signs that indicate it was a handmade instrument. Luthiers are human. However, I think you'll find less of these "signs" if a luthier is proud of his work and takes the time to pay attention to detail.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to TANúñez)
Thank you Anders and Tom, for your replies. I will be more specific: recently a client/friend bought me a guitar to thank me for significant and succesful work i did gratuitously: a GR Vazquez blanca. the sound is amazing, and exactly the she sound/mood I would hope to find in a traditional blanca.
However, while i appreciate that the action may need to be set up at a standard measure each one will later adjust to his/her liking, i was surprised by: the Pegs: squeaky and stiff like a rusty wheel; the Frets twice higher than my Conde, Navarro or Ramirez; after a few hours my finger-tips turned unusually callous and painful. I felt something had to be worn with the frets, and the zelous and meticulous luthier who checks and adjusts all my instruments confirmed the problem.
While I love this guitar, i find it peculiar that a prestigious shop as GRV would set up a flamenca blanca with such approximate details, having such important impact on the guitars' ultimate performance.
This is not a complaint, but perhaps simply a call or auspice for more attention and I of course will send this to GRV, along with my satifaction for the balance of his woderful guitar.
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to gj Michelob)
Pegs are tricky. Being an amateur builder myself, I have learned that there is more to making a peghead than just drilling six holes and sticking 6 pegs in them. I don't know many builders that fit pegs well. In fact, the 3 builders that I do know fit them well are American builders. DeVoe, Green and Shelton. I haven't tried an Eliasson yet but knowing Anders, I bet he does a good job as well.
In your case gj, perhaps GVR doesn't have a lot of experience with pegs. Or perhaps he doesn't have the right tools for the job. Or maybe it's as simple as applying the right peg compound.
Every maker has his way of doing things and every makers uses materials he likes best. Maybe GVR likes using higher fretwire. This is usually the luthiers personal preference. I prefer medium fretwire, .080" to .095" with the height of the crown being about .046". Maybe GVR likes his .050"? just personal preference.
Maybe he doesn't even do the final setup. Perhaps someone does this for him.
It's not easy being a guitarist. We all have our own preferences and trying to find a guitar that has them all is not that easy. A big reason why I started building.
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to gj Michelob)
I have a serious question without any joking.
quote:
I understand that most guitars are handmade and there will always be signs that indicate it was a handmade instrument.
I past I allways heared about condes, that there are some brothers who make the guitars by hand. And if you are not lucky, you buy a "factory" made conde from (valencia?). Are there machines like machines which put beans in boxes and automatically close and pack them also for condes? I mean, you press a button and at the other end of the machine a ready to play conde drops out? I allways thought, there must be people who build the guitar. Maybe one person for one particular step or part of the guitar. (Which is not so bad IMO because they can focus on less details and make it more perfect (afer 200 guitars...). I had a conde studio model in past, from such a "factory". Ok the settings were extremely bad. The strings were very high but snared. But the sound was 1:1 conde. I allways thouht about lowering the fretboad and the bone. Than I would have had a very good conde studio wit great original conde sound.... Well.. in the end I taded it... I loved it but was young and stupid and needed the money.. you know?
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to Doitsujin)
I think it is funny how too many people give up on a great guitar because the bone is high, or the guitar buzzes or something. Especially high price concert guitars. It is a simple thing to fix in most cases. But honestly, I think a big part of the success of Conde, since the beginning of their dynasty, was because they generally do a good set up, low bridge with good angle neck, not too low not too high etc. Not sure why other's don't copy them? Well i guess they do a lot, but still, as many nice guitars I have seen with high bones that sound great....
About factories, I believe it s about one guy makes necks the other the backs and sides, another makes tops, etc, then they assemble the guitar....then the "Master" whoever it is, slams the assembled guitar into a belt sander to tune the top. (he has to use his ear and know the flamenco note etc...), then throws it into the pile with the other "tuned" guitars. Once it is tuned it goes to the finishers. So a big part I think is the finishing and set up, whether your guitar will be a good one or not. So while peoples hands do build it, it is very impersonal way to assemble, and that is the main down fall for the factory idea. Better that they have ONE guy build each guitar rather than special parts, know what I mean, so he can set the angle and stuff an know the action will end up good, tune the top specifically, not generally, etc.
Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to Taranto)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Taranto
quote:
But honestly, I think a big part of the success of Conde, since the beginning of their dynasty, was ...
Honestly I think that Conde's success has only one part and that's Paco.
Watch Rito y Geografia del cante, and notice EVERY guitarist just about had a Conde (Sobrinos de Esteso at that time, same thing...), except paco used a Ramirez.
Honestly I am talking BEFORE PACO. You can't tell me Morao, Parilla, Cepero, Manolo Sanlucar, Melchor de Marchena, and several not so famous but excellent accomp. of cante, all were influenced by YOUNG paco. More likely Paco used those guitars because EVERYONE else had already figured out why they sounded and feel good (including his dad and older brother). Perhaps we can blame someone like Niño Ricardo for their popularity in the 60's-70's...but even still... even Melchor de Marchena was using an old beat up Conde negra. And I heared people say Paco was the first to use flamenco negras. So you think Melchor was influenced by Paco? Come on...
For sure Paco's popularity helps the name later, and maybe influenced many to use a negra instead, but all along it was for sure a popular make amongst flamenco players in Spain.
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to Ricardo)
quote:
Watch Rito y Geografia del cante, and notice EVERY guitarist just about had a Conde (Sobrinos de Esteso at that time, same thing...), except paco used a Ramirez.
I haven't watched that but if that's the case then touché.
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to gj Michelob)
quote:
But honestly, I think a big part of the success of Conde, since the beginning of their dynasty, was because they generally do a good set up, low bridge with good angle neck, not too low not too high etc. Not sure why other's don't copy them?
Since this has turned into a Conde thread I will continue.
The last Conde A26 that I tried about a month ago had a very buzzy setup with way to low strings, still the height at the bridge was alost 10mm... Conde can screw it as well. But I must admit that mostly they do a good setup. Ricardo, you like very much to write about how great Condes are. I agree on the old ones. If well kept, they can be very nice.Unfortunately a lot of them are now really beaten. When it comes to the newer ones, I simply dont get. To me they are mediocre plastic looking factory guitars without personality. I only see one advantage, that they work well with a microphone. And then, when you add the price......... I dont get it. There are so many other guitars which are better and cheaper.
I still think they sell a lot because of the "I want to look like the others" appeal. Just like Fender and Gibson in the electric world.
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to Anders Eliasson)
I have to agree with Ricardo. A lot of what I do now is patterned after the modern Conde. These guitar just work. They are a great "working" guitar. Whether it's for solo use or accompanyment. They get the job done. I don't agree with the high price tag now nor would I pay the current price for a new one but you can always find a good used one at a decent price and I would prefer to get a used broken in one anyway.
Posts: 1531
Joined: Nov. 7 2008
From: New York City/San Francisco
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to TANúñez)
I suppose one should also distinguish a maker's Negra from its Blanca. They are rather different beasts. I love the one Conde i have, and have kept (a 2006 negra) but disposed of a blanca -orange- and another identical twin negra ('97), which seemed set up difefrently.
There are days when my conde sounds as if made of "plastic", but i am afraid that is a recurrent problem with all instrument. I rmember a friend at Julliard sharing the same frustration abut her "Montgnana" Cello. But, as in her case, save for those metereopathic depressions, when my Conde sings, it sings like El Camaron ...
RE: Do all new guitars need adjustme... (in reply to gj Michelob)
My experiencce is that all guitars have bad days and good days. For me, December in England seems to be a good month for Condes so far.
Anders is right to distinguish between old and new Conde guitars, but we probably also need to distinguish between the three businesses that have emerged since the brothers died at Gravina, Atocha and Felipe V. As far as I know, they are independent of each other. I would b interested to know how their internal constuctions differs.
Early Condes that have survived are often a joy to play – light and responsive. As for modern Condes, I only have experience of the ones from Felipe V. I suppose I must have tried about 20 over the past 5 years in Madrid and London. All have been set up well. One was dead. The others varied quite a lot but some I liked very much. One factor that should not be overlooked in respect of their popularity with professional players is that they are always available. If you want an A26 or AF25 you can often find 6 or more of each in the shop at Felipe V and they will be able to tell you who regularly stocks their guitars. So professional guitarists based in Madrid or in other major Spanish cities can go and try the latest ones periodically until they find what they want. Those with a gentle playing style would probably be better off with something else – perhaps a more lightly built guitar that is more like the old Condes. I have a 1965 media luna blanca and a 2003 A26 and I love them both.
I am happy to accept a few blemishes in a guitar and I can accept that I might need to raise or lower the action a little. I hate to see frets left flat after levelling - if the luthier doesn't care enough to finish the frets properly what might be going on in the parts you can't see?! Rob
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I dont get it. There are so many other guitars which are better and cheaper. 
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