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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2003 16:17:55

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tom & Carlos Montoya (in reply to Guest)

AndyB, I'm not really a Carlos Montoya fan, but, I have only been playing flamenco guitar for about 4 years now. Anyway, I have his "The Art of the Flamenco Guitar" CD, and I cannot follow any of his music! To me, it's all over the place. iI honestely cannot find or follow his compas. I don't have much trouble following other music, but this CD I cannot make head or tail of! ;>)

I'm sure that he is a great guitar player, I mean he has to be in order to get the reputation that he has, but, I don't really like his music that much. As a matter of fact, about 2 or 3 week ago, I tried to listen to it again, and after about 4 or 5 minutes I just turned it off.

What do you think is my problem? I love all flamenc, although, I'm not experienced enough to know the style from region to region, so what do you think I'm misunderstanding about Montoya's music?

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2003 16:42:56

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Tom & Carlos Montoya (in reply to Guest)

Great examples Andy!

Notice the Bulerias compas – the speed changes and is set by the dancer. So many arguments about how Gitanos keep “perfect compas with an absolute sense of beat”! I have never heard anyone play like a metronome at a juerga! Notice how Carlos was always there whatever the dancer decided to do. You have to be a good accompanist, look at the dancer (flamenco guitar position is a must!) and be able to follow or even lead on occasion. Anyone who accompanied Carmen Amaya had to be good! Sabicas, Carlos Montoya, and Juan Maya “El Marote” are a few good examples.

Great Farruca! I love Farruca and Carlos inspired me to play Farruca accompaniment for Ciro in 1964. Some people will tell you that Farruca is not flamenco. Oh well!

Like you I love this version of Malaguena as well as the second version, Malaguena bolera, which I learned my own version and is available as an example on my web site. By the way this version is very traditional and for baile. I do not know if it is still popular as I learned it 45 years ago and still like it. I enjoy the Estribillo.

As for the Fandangos, I wish it was as a accompanist to have that spark I love. It is otherwise a fine solo piece. The colpas are traditional and typical of the ones I learned from Mariano Cordoba. When Katy hears one of these colpas she sings them. Some people think you should not know any flamenco music from the past. Perhaps Katy and I live in the past but we enjoy ourselves.

Notice how different the world of accompaniment is from flamenco guitar solo playing! When you add all the elements from good flamencos – palmas, baile y cante you have real flamenco! Full of passion and feeling.

I am glad I met Carlos Montoya on several occasions and found him to be a very warm, patient and encouraging person, willing to share his knowledge and point you in the right direction.

Thank you for the samples!

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2003 16:57:32

Thomas Whiteley

Posts: 786
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: San Francisco Bay Area

RE: Tom & Carlos Montoya (in reply to Merle)

Merle;

Your feeling towards the music of Carlos Montoya playing solo flamenco guitar is understandable. Remember he was the first to play solo flamenco guitar on stage and tour the world.

Here is an analogy (disclaimer: analogies never really work) using baseball as the example. You know - baseball? The great American passtime? Where everyone falls asleep before anything happens.

Solo flamenco guitar is like a baseball game in which there is only a catcher and no other players on the field. Now that is boring! Carlos was a great accompanist and an inspiration to dancers.

_____________________________

Tom
http://home.comcast.net/~flamencoguitar/flamenco.html

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 26 2003 17:03:59

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Merle)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2003 5:20:58

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2003 5:23:12

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Tom & Carlos Montoya (in reply to Guest)

quote:

ORIGINAL: AndyB

The compas was there for sure, but there were far more expressive changes of tempo than I hear in the music after 1960. Today it sounds that everything is recorded to a click track.

Hi Andy B,

Absolutely everything in the modern studio is recorded with a click track, except in ours :) People are surprised and even scared but in the end, compás have more life when done by palmeros and Harold remembers the old days when the musicians created the beat not a programmed machine. No click track on Taller de Compás, these kids have their own inner rhythm machine, its called a heart :)

Talking of Montoya and Sabicas, I wonder if anyone has heard and what people think of their playing and the use of their recordings on the new Morente album.

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2003 12:23:32

Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: Tom & Carlos Montoya (in reply to Guest)

my studies here in Spain have inspired me to undertake a project of investigating many different flamenco styles from the past. I listened to a Granainas where Ramon Montoya was the accompaniast, and recognized a lot of the lame licks I got from Juan Martin. I knew Juan Martin was old fashioned, but wasn´t Montoya turn of the century??

But when you listen to Montoya´s granaina and then you listen to Vicente Amigo, it´s quite hard to make any connection. I like new flamenco, or at least I should I say I like bits and parts of it. But it´s pretty hard to learn from. It´s so disjointed. It´s almost like an inside joke, based on references of which I am ignorant.

This is why I want to start from the very source, listen to as much as I can and as widely as I can. If I can start from the basics then surely I will understand the new ways better.

Obviously this is a huge project, but I am going to take it little by little and of course not have any illusions that I will learn everything or perhaps anything but a scratching of the surface. That being said, I want to petition the forum for recommendations. I´m looking for old-school stuff, prime examples of form. Anything from Montoya to Nino Ricardo to Sabicas. What are the benchmarks of flamenco?

What are the must-listens?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2003 13:05:28

Kate

Posts: 1827
Joined: Jul. 8 2003
From: Living in Granada, Andalucía

RE: Tom & Carlos Montoya (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Michael W Cho

It´s almost like an inside joke, based on references of which I am ignorant.

I think there is alot of truth in this statement. It 's also true for Hollywood ;)

Kate

_____________________________

Emilio Maya Temple
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000CA6OBC
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/emiliomaya

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2003 14:43:24

Merle

Posts: 218
Joined: Jul. 6 2003

RE: Tom & Carlos Montoya (in reply to Thomas Whiteley)

"The great American passtime? Where everyone falls asleep before anything happens."

ROTFL

Tom, I'm sure your right about Montoya, I'm probably not experienced enough to follow his music, that's all. Maybe I will put the CD back on and listen to the whole thing again.

Merle

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2003 16:09:20

Guest

[Deleted] (in reply to Miguel de Maria)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jul. 27 2003 20:50:04

steenland

Posts: 36
Joined: Jul. 7 2003

RE: Tom & Carlos Montoya (in reply to Guest)

To: Andy B.

Carlos Montoya was married to an American diplomat's daughter that he met in Paris.
Believe that she was studying dance at the time.

Recuerdos,

T. J. Steenland

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Aug. 2 2003 4:43:37