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PDL's picado position: supporting the guitar?   You are logged in as Guest
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Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

PDL's picado position: supporting th... 
You know when Paco (and others) play picado, they lift the right elbow upwards (from the shoulder joint) to maintain a straight wrist and to cross at right angles to the strings?

I had a play with this positioning, and the guitar nearly fell off my leg! Normally, the inside of my upper right arm - round the biceps - stabilises the guitar by resting lightly on the top of the lower bout, and as soon as I lift my arm off the guitar into this picado position the guitar tilts down at the headstock end, and would fall off If I didn't support it in my left hand (which is obviously not desirable).

I watched the Light & Shade video closely and Paco's right arm is completely clear of the guitar in some situations, particularly say, when he plays a descending run and ends up on the 5th or 6th string.

Having experimented with this, I must admit I'm slightly baffled. How does the guitar stay supported and not tilt downwards at the headstock?

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2004 12:56:07
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2004 13:21:10
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
I don't know, I play this way and it is an enduring mystery. The flamenco positions are certanly not as stable as the classical ones, but they look a lot COOLER. When I do big picado runs I lose control of the guitar briefly and need to reposition my hands. This isn't that big of a deal, though, just something that needs to be practiced. On the other hand, it takes a lot of energy to hold up the right arm, which means you have to be sensible while practicing.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2004 15:31:01
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
I have my guitar like PDL and i never had that problem.
The guitar stays in my lap. Don´t understand how it could move

Henrik
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2004 15:34:55
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2004 16:16:23
 
Jim Opfer

Posts: 1876
Joined: Jul. 19 2003
From: Glasgow, Scotland.

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
Jon,

I have a 'reasonable' picado and hold my guitar in the traditional position.
When my right arm comes up as you describe, my guitar neck is supported in the 'V' between my left hand thumb and fingers, quite loose so as not to slow my left hand which just slides along the neck. (hard to describe in words, but it works).
I see from the still pictures in Paco's latest CD that he's back to the traditional position.

Cheers
Jim.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 26 2004 16:54:44
 
duende

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Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Guest) 
it was a silly pm
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2004 6:48:42
 
Jon Boyes

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Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
I find this fascinating - we are talking about one of the world's finest guitar players, and one of the techniques he is famous for, and we're not sure how he holds up his guitar!

The main theories from here and FT are basically:

-use the left hand to hold up the neck
-use the right hand thumb to apply inward/downward pressure on the guitar top (or the strings) to prevent it from tilting
-that the guitar IS momentarily put off balance (or out of control), but only briefly due to the speed of the technique, and quickly 'rescued'.

..and then there's Henriks guitar which seems to defy gravity Is your guitar a peghead, Henrik? (They are lighter at the headstock). If not, I don't understand what you are saying - its very unusual for the guitar to balance at its waist like that. Flamenco guitar bodies are built so lightly that the neck and headstock will normally put it off balance. Either you have an unusual guitar or there is something else that you are not aware of in your position that is anchoring the guitar.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2004 8:44:06
 
Jon Boyes

Posts: 1377
Joined: Jul. 10 2003
 

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Jim Opfer) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim Opfer
When my right arm comes up as you describe, my guitar neck is supported in the 'V' between my left hand thumb and fingers, quite loose so as not to slow my left hand which just slides along the neck. (hard to describe in words, but it works).


Hi Jim

I have a real problem understanding how this works for you. When I (or Paco for that matter) play scale runs, the left wrist is straight, thumb is centered in the back of the neck, fingers are at right angles to the strings. The only parts of my left hand in contact with the neck are my thumb and finger tips, applying minimal opposing pressure.

In this position, it would be awkward to have the neck sitting in the V between forefinger and thumb - especially as my hand position in relation to the neck would need to move playing a scale across the strings.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2004 10:57:48
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2004 13:47:48
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
Doesn't the RH forearm also touch the guitar? In that case, there would be 3 points...leg, chest, and forearm (as well as thumb)
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2004 14:44:13
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2004 15:18:00
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
RichardM wrote:
...The thing is Paco is ALWAYS making contact with his right arm so the guitar is always balanced on the right leg. I am assuming you are playing near the bridge, not over the sound hole. So when doing picados on the open 5th and 6th strings (with the left hand on your right ankle) the guitar is EASILY supported by contact of the index or middle finger on the string, the thumb on the soundboard, the forearm/wrist on the side/corner, all pushing the guitar into your (right side) chest. The guitar will not move unless you let go of all 3 points of right hand contact.

--This is also how I understand the picado to work. The vital point, I believe, is the contact of the forearm on the side/corner of the guitar. With this you are touching the guitar in 3/4 places, a triangle of wrist,leg,chest+ thumb. Without it, you don't have a triangle of support, unless you count the action of the fingers + thumb as support. This is needlessly difficult.
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2004 20:16:23
 
duende

Posts: 3053
Joined: Dec. 15 2003
From: Sweden

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
Hello dear friends.
I did examin my picado position to day.
I hold the guitar with my left hand . And i DO hold the guitar with my right. I don´t really push "up"when i play picado
it´s more of an inward movment towards the guitar.
And Jon my guitar is a peg head and falls slightly forward when im not holding it.
sorry my mistake!

Henrik
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 27 2004 20:33:15
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  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2004 2:38:58
 
Jon Boyes

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RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Miguel de Maria) 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Miguel de Maria
This is also how I understand the picado to work. The vital point, I believe, is the contact of the forearm on the side/corner of the guitar.


And yet I swear that there are times when Paco (and others, as Andy points out) lose this contact completely, which is the point that I am making. If the right forearm does keep i contact, then theres no mystery.

Mike - go watch Light and Shade and fast forward to some of Paco's Picado runs, see what you think. Its difficult to tell sometimes as he wears a big baggy shirt with big sleeves. Have a look at Mi Nino Curro at the end, and also the brilliant live solo Solea about half way thru.

Jon
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2004 10:01:25
 
Miguel de Maria

Posts: 3532
Joined: Oct. 20 2003
From: Phoenix, AZ

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
It seems that this may be an exceptional adjunct to his normal technique, though,no? Impressive as picado runs are, they must only occupy less than 5% of a song. Yet look how much discussion they generate? Actually, I do sympathize, since I spent almost two hours a day practicing picado for almost two years!
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2004 17:52:35
 
Fergusito

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2003
From: UK

RE: PDL's picado position: supportin... (in reply to Jon Boyes) 
Wihtout sitting down with the guitar I guess it's all a question of balance. I have tried using this technique before and I didn't find the guiatr falling off my leg or anything
fergus
  REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE |  Date May 28 2004 19:00:53
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