Javier Conde (the bullfighter) and flamenco

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AntonioM

Posts: 32
Joined: Apr. 15 2008
From: Linares

Javier Conde (the bullfighter) and f... 1 votes

Javier Conde loves live music playing when he fights the bulls. In this vid, it seems like a live guitarist and singer are following his every move and may be present in the stands. He seems to almost dance in compas to the music, which I think is live.

If you like his style, here is another great vid of him in action:

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 17:09:05

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

I will never understand what's so nice about torturing animals...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 20:42:45

takitaka

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 13 2008

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

not really into animal abuse mate !!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 20:45:00

Doitsujin

Posts: 5078
Joined: Apr. 10 2005

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

hoo.. Than Im not the only one who is afraid of the poor bulls.. The fights are so unfair...
I like this one:

And this one:

Did I mentioned, that Im even more afraid about the helpless poor horses? So sad.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 20:56:49

takitaka

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 13 2008

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

the guy got the horn ,great !!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 21:08:12

Matic

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

quote:

Javier Conde loves live music playing when he fights the bulls.

Oh, you seem to be quite an expert. That's good. Tell us more about this beautiful art, I'd really be interested. Yeah, I do like his style very much. The bull seems so small beside him, he must be so brave! Oh, and what a tiring job this must be, oh my! And dirty! Look, he's bloody at the end, yuck! He really is a hero! And he's totally in compas, dude! You have to admit, the point of all this isn't in that last hit but all the calvary he makes the bull go through. And the crowds are just loving it! I'd give everything to be there and cut everyone's throats. [edit: emotionally altered end of this post, not meant literally i guess... though i'll never approve this stuff]

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vengo de los san migueles
si no me caso este año que yo
me caso el año que viene

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 21:12:06

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to takitaka)

I dont have a problem in other peoples tastes in cultural activities, as long as they dont harm other humans. But i fear not everyone is as tolerant as me, which is the REAL sadness here.... and oh... i would never murder somebody because he tortured an animal, and i also would never wish him bad luck or something. Sorry just wanted to make these things clear. Thanks.

anyways, i cant really see the connection to flamenco???

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 21:25:39

takitaka

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 13 2008

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to XXX)

The kind of mindset that enables someone to enjoy the wilful suffering of animals is just one step away from enjoying torture of man .i m h o. cheers

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 21:38:41

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

well, i dont enjoy torturing of animals, but i leave other peoples tastes to them, as long as they dont harm other people. so, to answer your "question": no, torturing of man is a little bit a different category for me, amigo. And messages that express that they want to murder other people, is even a WHOLE different category, and NOT FUNNY...

c h e e r s

btw. welcome!

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 21:51:25

takitaka

Posts: 55
Joined: Apr. 13 2008

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to XXX)

gracias ,leaving other peoples" tastes " to them can be quiet dangerous wouldn't one say ? as history shows all to clearly .

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 22:04:34

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

I'll will PayPal $1000 dollars to anyone who can show me WHERE exactly in those videos posted above, the "torture" took place. The animal was teased yes, but I think alot of you are confusing the two terms.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 22:23:20

Georg

Posts: 405
Joined: Feb. 5 2006
From: Germany

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

quote:

I'll will PayPal $1000 dollars to anyone who can show me WHERE exactly in those videos posted above, the "torture" took place.

The torture starts already before the bullfight. Drugs, beating, being held in a dark pole days before the fight starts to blear their eyes. Yeah brave matadores...

In the video: Don't you think that the bull feels pain having 3 or 4 spears in his neck?
I cannot speak for the rest of the video since I didn't watch it until the end.

bank account details via pm...but I renounce your money

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 19 2008 22:44:18

kovachian

Posts: 506
Joined: Jan. 30 2008
From: Americanistan

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Georg)

Spears, is that what those things are? I thought they were just some weird decorations. Anyways I dunno why you'd send bank details if you renounce the US's worthless currency

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 6:04:38

XXX

Posts: 4400
Joined: Apr. 14 2005

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to takitaka)

quote:

ORIGINAL: takitaka

gracias ,leaving other peoples" tastes " to them can be quiet dangerous wouldn't one say ? as history shows all to clearly .

no you have to read, as i said: "... as long as they dont harm other people."
And the history of this thread shows me, that I am more scared of people who would murder others, because they dont like their freetime activities, than of people who just have a freetime activity i dont share. The latter ones wouldnt harm other people. Thats the BIG difference.

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Фламенко

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 7:56:37

ToddK

Posts: 2961
Joined: Dec. 6 2004

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

Then of course, there's Cat Juggling.

Oh, the non-humanity!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 8:18:45

Jan Willem

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

quote:

I'd give everything to be there and cut everyone's throats.

....idiot, now that's VERY flamenco, true respect for life, way the go!

@kovachian : The animals sure feel pain, no need to deny that. Death is painfull but that 's more or less the point. The fight symbolizes the victory of men over death and pain. And yeah it's tragic to see but so is (was) live. Why they call it an art is cause of the way the torrero handlle's the bull with a lot of elegance, "arrogance" etc. The torreador must have a lot of courage to handlle de bull and at the same time make it look like a sort of ballet. I consider it art for sure.

It's muy flamenco imo but a bit bloody for a 21 century event.

IMO: ok it's a cultural thing but why always seven bulls? Why not make it one bull to diminish animal cruelty?

JW

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 9:37:14

Matic

Posts: 603
Joined: Jul. 3 2006
From: Slovenija

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

Sometimes the feelings of the oppressed minority erupt in an uncontrolled way, letting the emotions lead the actions....

For my view on the subject read Peter Singer, Tom Regan, Paola Cavalieri etc.

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vengo de los san migueles
si no me caso este año que yo
me caso el año que viene

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 11:18:30

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM) 1 votes

At the risk of losing all my points on this emotive subject...I would comment as a foreigner living in Spain that to ignore or negate bullfighting is maybe to ignore or negate part of the culture of Flamenco.

I am not saying you have to like or approve of Bullfighting.

What I am saying that music such as the paso-doble, aficionados such as Manolo Sanlucar (and the album Tauromagia), many songs and much of the male baile is majorly influenced by bullfighting. At least understanding a bit about the moves, music and form can help to understand some of the origins (and influences) of the baile and why flamenco has elements of such passion and brutality.
If bullfighting really angers you and outrages you to the point that you want to kill (or suggest killing people) when the subject is brought up....you may find some aspects of Spanish culture and learning flamenco deeply unsatisfying.

Although I personally do not enjoy bull fighting, my opinion on this subject has certainly change a lot over my time here. I choose to live in Andalucia and because of that there are things I have to either put up with or leave. Antonio (who made this post) comes from Linares so for him watching a bullfight is no more barbaric than say a non Spaniard watching a heavyweight boxing match (which is equally violent, bloody and dangerous) The second video has a short segment at 1.00 where the bullfighter is dancing with the bull. I see why he posted it....es muy flamenco. (note how the crowd shouts olé at every move, just as if he were a great dancer)

Bull fighting is still more popular here than football (soccer) and the size of the crowds in the videos reflect that fact. Its a part of Andaluz culture and (love it or hate it ) is not going to go away for a while. Flamenco is more than a music, it is a reflection of a people, culture and a lifestyle with both good and bad elements.

This forum invites people to from all over the world to discuss and debate flamenco culture, yet strangely when a local Andalucian makes a post demonstrating the artistic moves of a great toreador, he is he is judged very harshly and unkindly for sharing part of the very culture that influences flamenco art. Lo siento Antonio.

Its just my viewpoint- please dont kill me for it!!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 13:20:29

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Pimientito)

quote:

Although I personally do not enjoy bull fighting, my opinion on this subject has certainly change a lot over my time here. I choose to live in Andalucia and because of that there are things I have to either put up with or leave

Yep, you got it. I am in total agreement with you and in complete disagreement with bull-fighting so I choose not to patronise it in any way but that doesn't seem to bother the locals.

I see the flamenco influence (or the other way around).

These are cultural differences and there are many contradictions down here. Strays roam the streets, getting run over all the time; while owners queue up at the vets, and I mean every day, to get their pets vaccinated and checked out.

I am not leaving because of bull-fighting

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 13:29:42

Pimientito

Posts: 2481
Joined: Jul. 30 2007
From: Marbella

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Escribano)

Phew!!! Glad you got what I was trying to say. I was worried about being burned as a fascist or something. It was actually a dance teacher who first made me watch a bull fight to explain part of the Farruca.... I thought well, why not just do it without the bull. Edventually I kind of got it, but you have to lose some English sensibilities for it to make sense.

quote:

I am not leaving because of bull-fighting

I know... its all those stray dogs forcing you home

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 13:40:00

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Pimientito)

some farming methods for chickens or other farm animals are much crueler than whats going on in this video. i come from a hunting background and i appreciate the strength and nobility of the animal.

however as i have learned with bullfigting, the animals are doped and failing before they go to the bull ring. personally as a hunter, if i were in africa facing wild game, either a buffalo, lion whatever, and if i wanted to test my metal i would face my adversary the animal with only my gun.

bullfigthing rig's the match somewhat thus the matadors are really cheating themselves of a TRUE challenge to their skills.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 14:52:26

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to henrym3483)

... if i wanted to test my metal i would face my adversary the animal with only my gun.

That's very big of you...

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 15:05:56

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to prd1)

quote:

... if i wanted to test my metal i would face my adversary the animal with only my gun.

That's very big of you...

prd1,

man has no natural weapons due to our size and strength, thus our ancestors to survive developed weapons. the gun is the product of weaponary evolution from the spears and arrows of africa.

though i have spoken with a couple of gentlemen who have went bowhunting in africa with modern Bows and have been very successful. they have bigger cajones than me.

furthermore, if you wanna talk of "true" cruelty you dont have to go further than your local shopping centre. how many animals have you consumed in your life? how many times have you gone to mcdonalds and had a chicken burger

check this page out if you wanna know really cruelty
http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/w-whykfc.asp

i eat mainly venison (wild deer), wild meat and free range meat, fish and shellfish.

my conscience is clear. im man enough to take the animals life with my own hands rather than let another do the dirty work on my behalf so you can go to the local tesco or wherever and pick it up in a plastic pack.

people are so far removed from what they are eating its scary.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 15:37:14

Arash

Posts: 4495
Joined: Aug. 9 2006
From: Iran (living in Germany)

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

ORIGINAL: henrym3483

furthermore, if you wanna talk of "true" cruelty you dont have to go further than your local shopping centre. how many animals have you consumed in your life? how many times have you gone to mcdonalds and had a chicken burger

check this page out if you wanna know really cruelty
http://www.kentuckyfriedcruelty.com/w-whykfc.asp

i eat mainly venison (wild deer), wild meat and free range meat, fish and shellfish.

my conscience is clear. im man enough to take the animals life with my own hands rather than let another do the dirty work on my behalf so you can go to the local tesco or wherever and pick it up in a plastic pack.

people are so far removed from what they are eating its scary.

Well said!

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 16:40:30

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to henrym3483)

I don't eat meat...your personality profile software needs a tweak!!!!!!

My point has been misunderstood - if you want to prove your "metal" - shooting an animal is not a very good metric?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 17:56:19

Jan Willem

Posts: 274
Joined: Feb. 21 2007
From: Belgium Halle

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

@prd1: My experience is that lot's of the people who fight so hard for animal rights often don't know or have less experience with animals. Animals are fascinating smart sometimes and no doubt have to be respected in every way, but "humanising" it is absolutely out of the question. As Henry said: " people are so far removed from what they are eating its scary." (yes you are a veggi)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 18:27:21

cneberg

Posts: 257
Joined: Apr. 20 2006
From: Sončno polje pri Večnosti

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to AntonioM)

Killing animals for survival is different than killing them for joy and good times (you can eat only broccoli too).

But yes Henry, you are a man enough. There was never ever a single doubt.

Panem et circenses!

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Luka

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 18:29:46

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to prd1)

quote:

I don't eat meat...your personality profile software needs a tweak!!!!!!

ok so your a vegetarian.grand

re my personality profile, thats grand as it is.

quote:

My point has been misunderstood - if you want to prove your "metal" - shooting an animal is not a very good metric?

"metal" as in guts, cajones,courage-whatever. im telling you, you'd wanna have cajones the size of mellons to hunt any of the animals in africa. if you dont have a gun they will trample, gore, crush or tear you limb from limb.

im read a book by a scottish hunter called walter bell (1890), and he discribed and elephant pinning a native hunter down, and pulling each of his limbs off like a human would do to a fly.the elephant then realising what it did, covered the body over with branches and trees to hide the evidence.they are smart animals and i have a healthy respect for them.

some people prove their metal in the boxing ring, others on the field of battle.
some do it hunting lions or buffalo. many an african hunter has been killed by animals they have put over 5 bullets or more into. a gun does not gaurantee you safety against these animals.

re hunting dear etc, i do that just for the meat.i dont trophy hunt neither do i agree in trophy hunting, ive even used the antlers to make replacment knife and tool handles.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 18:33:51

prd1

Posts: 206
Joined: Jul. 11 2007

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to Jan Willem)

I don't fight for animal rights...your personality profile software also needs a tweak!!!!!!

My point has been misunderstood - if you want to prove your "metal" - shooting an animal is not a very good metric?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 18:34:04

henrym3483

Posts: 1584
Joined: Nov. 13 2005
From: Limerick,Ireland

RE: Javier Conde (the bullfighter) a... (in reply to henrym3483)

quote:

Panem et circenses!

bread and circus i.e. to keep the masses happy.

makes sense as the bullring and bullfighting is a throwback to roman gladatorial games.(in the latter years of the empire animals and human vs animal fighting became more popular)

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Apr. 20 2008 18:38:51