Pulgar revisited

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Pulgar revisited

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greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

Pulgar revisited

Hi everybody!

While still concentrating on developing some pulgar chops I've just discovered a nice little formula which seems to open up some avenues for me - thought I'd pass it on to you all in the hope it might benefit someone, somehow.

The basic idea is to use the pulgar and ONLY the pulgar on (and in an even) group of eight notes. They can be of any type of duration: eighths, sixteenths, thirty-seconds or simple quarter notes for that matter, but the important aspect to remember is that they are all - all the 8 notes - of equal length (duration).

The pulgar's movement in this exercice goes both ways - down and up.

Now the specific quality of the following exercice lies within the actual GROUPING of the down and upstrokes performed by the pulgar. In this case the group of eight note's stokes is subdivided into three small groups.

The formula is: 3 - 3 - 2.

Translated into pulgar stroke directions: Down, up, down,(3) Down, up, down,(3) Down, up.(2) Recognize the grouping's structure? 3-3-2?

OK, Now comes the actual trick.

Maintain the pulgar stroke-directions, do not vary them (yet!); down,up, down, down, up, down, down, up..... but mentally REGROUP the eight notes into two four-note groups of of equal length; (simply said divide 8 by 2) careful, because by playing the sequence and accenting the halfway points you now get:

Down, up, down, down, Up, down, down, up .... (Loop it to get into the groove and place an accent at the two halfway points)..... Like in a two-feel kinda thing, Rumba or what have you....?

All in all it's a little different feel than straight up and down or doing the standard Alzapua formula of down-down-up played continuously even if it's done in a duple meter kind of thing.

What to do with the formula?

I like to do four extra variations while keeping the stroke-directions formula intact because the formula should always remain the same! - Down-up-down-down-Up-down-down-up while observing the symetrical accents!

Step 1) On a single string, on a single note perform the above formula, keeping the forearm lose, with only the pulgar. Do the same with small and large chords. The Pulgar sure is loud!

Step 2) On a single string varying the note (different pitch) at the halfway point of the formula; ie: on the sixth string third fret G-G-G-G then fifth fret A-A-A-A so that it sounds like : looped : G G G G A A A A - Notice the first of the A notes is an upstroke. Also do with chords.

Step 3) On one or more strings sub-divide the pulgar-strokes formula with four different pitches, say for instance G-G-A-A-Bb-Bb-A-A. and loop it. Chords maybe?

Step 4) Play a different pitch for every different pulgar stroke. For example: a scale going up to the octave (8 notes). Here's a pattern I like to get into when dealing with single notes - on a single string: G-A -G-Bb-A-Bb-G-A.

Declinate this pattern going up the scale : start on the next note of the scale, etc....

My own favorite scale right now is a Harmonic-Major scale - a regular major scale but with a flatted sixth. Works well with Flamenco, too!

May I also suggests two other formulas! Namely: 3-2-3 and 2-3-3 ..... As in the example above re-divide the group of 8 notes into two even groups of four maintaining the pulgar's picking directions - "3" stands for down-up-down and "2" stands for down-up. Now the picture is quite complete, I guess!

Well folks, I hope you haven't fallen asleep just yet, I know it's a bit of a long story but it is all meant to motivate you!!... It's actually a simple little piece of information I wished to share. I haven't invented it. In the mid-nineties I took two years of lessons with a classical Indian Sarod player from Calcutta. I have always admired the rhythmical articulations a musician like Ali Akbar Khan could draw upon, very similar to the scope of Flamenco masters. The Sarod is played with a large pointed pua (pick) called a Jawa and is made from a piece of coconut shell. Now, Koustuv Ray, my teacher has passed on to me a great amount of sarod picking techniques along with dozens of exercices and musical pieces. I've just recently been able to bring the two together: my new love for Flamenco, my beautiful new guitar and some of the Sarod music and techniques I had worked on long ago.The Indian name for this actual exercice with the Jawa (or the pulgar) is called Ekara which means One - as in a single note. It's one of the single note techniques used melodically in Sarod music. Today I don't own a Sarod anymore and my teacher has passed away, leaving me with only music - and various picking techniques, rhythms, scales, ideas on developing themes and melodies and ways to string them all up together...... in the Indian way!

Flamenco and Indian Music share common roots in my ears: principally improvisation.

Ok, my girl's on the phone and dinner is served - got to go! But please feel free to react or comment, dis or encourage....

Oléeey!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 16 2008 19:35:27

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to greeny)

Hi Greeny, I actually came across this method myself. It is good to see that the number of insanely systematic foro users is swelling at last.

The slant I took on it (and it was as a response to what I was hearing in the rythms of improvising doumbek and sitar players). Was to take the 332 patterns that you describe and whenever there is a douple stoke put a semiquaver inbetween. This works really well for i m alternation and gets away from playing four semiquavers whenever you feel like 'burning' a little when improvising on scales.

Also iiimmmii,mmmiiimm, and its inversion each produce interestingly grouped semiquavers. The real power in this is that when i play the semiqavers i just think about the 332 patter which generates them and since this is half the speed it helps to keep me relaxed.

Obvously the aim is to practice through a load of this time of material and when you brain hurts and let the rhythms emerge as you just play whatever you feel like.

D.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2008 0:59:17

Posts: 28
Joined: Mar. 1 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to greeny)

This is particularly interesting to me, because I have focused intently on improving my alzapua the past couple weeks. Picado, arpeggio and tremolo that beginners often struggle with were relatively easy for me when I became serious about teaching myself (with the aid of tutorials) to play flamenco a year ago, because of the same (or similar in the case of tremolo) techniques learned long ago when I played classical guitar, but rapid alzapua has been a difficult challenge for this old man. I finally decided to practice alzapua until I either wore my thumb to the bone or learned to play it the way I want to. There has been improvement after a couple weeks of intense practice, but I am still not up to the speed I want to be able to play.

Anyway, I am anxious to try greeny’s pulgar sequences. I used to travel to India two or three times a year and in addition to learning to love Indian food, learned to admire the music. Unfortunately, it is the middle of night right now and my wife sleeping so I will either have to wait until tomorrow to experiment with loud pulgar strokes or go without breakfast in the morning!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2008 6:08:43

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Guitarbuddha - Question!

(quote) ...whenever there is a duple stroke.... what's a duple stroke? i up i down? or i up m up?
as opposed to, say, single or triple stroke? i down or, i down, i up, i down?

And just for checking we speak the same language: semiquaver is a sixteenth note, right? or is it not?

And, also I assume that, in the sequences you wrote, (iiimmmii and mmmiiimm) when dealing with 3 you actually play down up down and dealing with 2 you do a down up combination- or even the reverse of everything.

I'm not sure I've grasped it fully but with my limited understanding, translated into actual RH finger movement it already feels great and I'll look into it during todays practice session.

Getting there is where all the fun is!

So.... it's back to the drawing board!

A.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2008 7:08:25

bahen

Posts: 378
Joined: Mar. 4 2006

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to greeny)

I found that really difficult to follow, so a video would, I think, be inordinately helpful.

b.h.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2008 18:25:06

Ron.M

Posts: 7051
Joined: Jul. 7 2003
From: Scotland

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to guitarbuddha)

quote:

Also iiimmmii,mmmiiimm, and its inversion each produce interestingly grouped semiquavers.

Wow GB,
That's way over my head!
I've never heard of that before and I can't ever remember seeing anybody play like this before.
My mind is boggling to imagine it.
Any chance of an upload, either video or audio to clarify this?

cheers,

Ron

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2008 19:25:41

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to Ron.M)

Will do Ron.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 17 2008 20:17:18

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to greeny)

quote:

ORIGINAL: greeny

Guitarbuddha - Question!

(quote) ...whenever there is a duple stroke.... what's a duple stroke? i up i down? or i up m up?
as opposed to, say, single or triple stroke? i down or, i down, i up, i down?

And just for checking we speak the same language: semiquaver is a sixteenth note, right? or is it not?

And, also I assume that, in the sequences you wrote, (iiimmmii and mmmiiimm) when dealing with 3 you actually play down up down and dealing with 2 you do a down up combination- or even the reverse of everything.

I'm not sure I've grasped it fully but with my limited understanding, translated into actual RH finger movement it already feels great and I'll look into it during todays practice session.

Getting there is where all the fun is!

So.... it's back to the drawing board!

A.

In classical/flamenco guitar, we do rasgueado in 2 directions, but plucked notes, free (tirando) or rested (apoyando) are always in ONE direction only with fingers (unlike sitar say). The thumb reverse stroke is rare exception.

So I assume GB meant rest strokes with his iiimmmim....if not....WTF???

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2008 2:39:43

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

This is what I mean. Take the three three two patterns. iim iim im say. Think of it over four beats ( ii mi im im : 1=+2+3+4+). Well what I mean when I said duple (I misspelt by the way I meant double

) is the two whenever there are consecutive stokes with one finger then move to strict alternation but keeping the rhythm of the underlying pattern even.

so i(m)im i(m)i m im. The the added notes are in brackets . The rhythm becomes (imi mi mim im im : 1e+ 2 + 3 +a 4 +).

When there is more than one doubled finger in a row then you get longer groups of semis. For example (another three three two) iii mmm im (again played evenly rhythm 1+2+3+4+). Add semiquaver strokes with the other finger whenever a single finger repeats in this pattern and you get ( i(m)i(m)im(i)m(i)i mi : 1e+a 2 +a 3e+ 4+). Notice that the two groups of four separate semiquavers are placed at different parts of the beat.

This kicking off at odd parts of the bar with fast four not speed bursts is one of the things that distinguishes world music from classical. Examples, using the last one above La Barossa (all over the place) . In inversion (starting the pattern itself in a different part of the bar) every paco Tangos since Solo Quiero Caminar, Tomatito tangos.

Although it seems complicated it is actually a very simple concept. But it can generate some very interestin rhythms. It will be much clearer when I record some excercises using them.

D,

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2008 4:42:37

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to guitarbuddha)

?

THe notes in () or the fingers rather, actually play and sound the rhythm (added 16th notes) as rest strokes, or they are just moving to keep your repeated strokes even???

Not clear if you want to produce the rhythm as you counted (1e+ 2 + etc) t or the fingers just move in strict alternation UNEVENLY to produce your accent pattern on the 8th notes. (1+ 2+ 3 + etc).

Hope you understood that Greeny thought you meant up and down stroking with the finger, like they do in sitar.

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2008 13:50:05

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to guitarbuddha)

GuitarBuddha......Aaaargghhh!

I think you have rather complicated the matter, maybe, perhaps, who knows.... I'm sure YOU understood the whole point we're dicussing but many others now seem utterly confused. Your post is so chock-full of information it'll take me some time to digest it fully.

Hey Folks, there's nothing complicated going on here - it's easy and simple...

In this "book" >> a three (3) group is always = down-up-down

and, a two (2) group = down-up

so either > i-i-i-m-m-m-i-i
or p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p translated from sanskrit is and always is:

down up down down up down down up. Now that isn't so hard, is it?

Keep it easy >> just play chords. Once you get confortable do single notes ....melodies and such.

The most important thing to remember is to accent the halfway points, initially even exagerating them, especially the second one - the up stroke at halfway.

I had started by applying the formula to the pulgar, and that can be quite nice and make for an exotic groove .... but that which Guitarbuddha suggested....>> the same 3 3 2 thing but this time with the fingers (i and m) has got me freaked out - it's so F*** great! it's fabulous, it's what I've been looking for, completely, totally.... Even in reverse, mmm iii mm which I haven't tried yet, must be an absolute hit!

Beware things do get a lot tougher when doing "it" > 3 2 3 and 2 3 3, but still, it's a must do.

Thanks ! I'd never thought of doing that 332 thing with the fingers... today I'm flying!

G.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2008 17:08:45

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to greeny)

quote:

Keep it easy >> just play chords. Once you get confortable do single notes ....melodies and such.

OK before things get any more unclear, I need to say you need to understand the mechanics of the technique of strumming vs playing single notes, ON GUITAR WITH FINGERS NOT WITH A PICK, are quite different. Even playing pulgar, playing the single notes vs, alzapua vs actually strumming with the thumb can all be very different. The thumb just playing single notes can at times be only the thumb moving, sometimes the wrist must move (like when you use a pick) and at times the entire arm needs to move.

I understand the purpose you guys are illustrating is one more about learning rhythm control which is great, but the mechanics of guitar technique, specifically the flamenco techniques are real important, and the rhythm ideas you guys want CAN be applied, but with the idea of the actual techniques in mind. You can't just say "ok now apply same RH pattern to single notes..." after doing rasgueados! My advice is that one can get plenty of exercises from the music itself, taken in chunks.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2008 20:06:55

Estevan

Posts: 1936
Joined: Dec. 20 2006
From: Torontolucía

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

My advice is that one can get plenty of exercises from the music itself, taken in chunks.

Olé to that!

p.s. [OT] how come I have two lemons now?

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Me da igual. La música es música.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 18 2008 20:51:16

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to Estevan)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estevan

quote:

My advice is that one can get plenty of exercises from the music itself, taken in chunks.

Olé to that!

p.s. [OT] how come I have two lemons now?

I now see how completely you guys missed the point of my proposition. Here are some jpegs to illustrate what I was actually meaning.

Recorded examples can be found here

http://www.foroflamenco.com/tm.asp?m=88030&appid=&p=&mpage=1&key=&tmode=&smode=&s=#88030

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2008 10:19:47

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

with the idea of the actual techniques in mind. You can't just say "ok now apply same RH pattern to single notes..." after doing rasgueados! My advice is that one can get plenty of exercises from the music itself, taken in chunks.

Ricardo

Hi Ricardo. I suppose that I am talking about moving from the GENERAL to an improvisation. But oddly enough the way that I arrived at this was from REVERSE engineering the playing of an indian slide guitarist improvising classical ragas in order to try and work out NOT how to play what he played but how he had practiced to allow him to be able to play it.

Now there is ZERO incompatability between this approach and working on specifics. Here is some home made tablature for an upload that I made working on a lick which we all know but which is pretty hard to get rhythmical. It illustrates how you can move from a general approach ( in this case three note motifs filled in with demisemiquavers over a latin (four notes per) beat. and if thats not clear look at the tab). At the end I run around a bit with my broken nail.

Ricardo ... I must say that when I was a classical guitarist working on pieces gave me absolutely no practice in improvising. I think that you can get practice in improvising from working on pieces but only when you generalise and simplify them. You can then learn lots as you begin building them up again. You can make a change in direction which will lead you to entirly new material of your own. This is what I have being trying (AND OBVIOUSLY FAILING MISERABLY) to explain not just in this post but since I first came here.

D.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2008 10:57:52

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Three finger arps.

There are recordings where I illustrate this and the same concept on four finger arps in uploads.

Just to bamboozle Ron

here is the arpeggio pattern for the four finger upload.

amiami pimami amipim amiami pimpim amipim pimami pimpim.

Now imagine that you were learning (and memorising ?) this. Would you want think of it in terms of the first line of my picado and three finger arp excercises (which is what you want people to hear anyway) or like the big stream of gobbledygook above ?

D.

D

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2008 11:09:25

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to guitarbuddha)

I did not miss your point GB, I was just trying to clearify it for Greeny since you guys seemed to think you were both on the same page, but really YOU WANTED REST STROKES for your pattern, specifically we see now m on E string, and i on B string, where as Greeny was thinking like a plectrum pattern for pulgar doing UP AN DOWN STROKES, thinking you meant the same for i and m.

I always understood what the POINT of your pattern was. I see now you wanted to really ADD IT UP with the alternations until you fill in all your "quavers" or however you want to call your subdivisions. Basically you could have just said "yes but add them up" to my last "?".

I hope Greeny gets it now. His point, the point of THIS thread, is more about UP AND DOWN Stroke patters, which I add only works for pulgar...unless you mean rasgueados in which case MY point about "getting exercises from the music" I mean, why not learn some TRADITIONAL RASGUEADO PATTERNS. Thats all.

Anyway GB thanks for your demo and pics.

Ricardo

_____________________________

CD's and transcriptions available here:
www.ricardomarlow.com

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2008 17:38:32

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to Ricardo)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

Basically you could have just said "yes but add them up" to my last "?".

Ricardo

I could have but as you pointed out I had already cause so much confusion that I thought full demonstration and visual explanation would be more helpful than that. Also I actually find these excercises quite effective.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ricardo

His point, the point of THIS thread, is more about UP AND DOWN Stroke patters, which I add only works for pulgar...unless you mean rasgueados in which case MY point about "getting exercises from the music" I mean, why not learn some TRADITIONAL RASGUEADO PATTERNS. Thats all.

Ricardo

Here is an excercise for picado alternating with up and down strokes of the index finger. I can now record on my computer so if anyone wants to hear this then I will oblige. I trust that the question 'why not learn some traditional rasgueado patterns' is aimed at Greeny. However maybe I should explain that the specific purpose of this excercise is to develop accuracy and stability when changing from rasg to picado and back. To develop this in days and not years.

Definately it is essential to learn traditional material too and especially for Greeny and anyone who does not yet know the traditional patterns. But that is not everyone here. I am pretty sure that I am not the only one who finds that shifting from one technique to another causes instability. So why not focus on that, oh and learn some original textures and improve rhythmic vocabulary.

Since this thread started off on pulgar then I can write out and record new excercises and applications for pulgar if anyone is interested. In particular one which focuses on position stability when moving between iai and ppm. Basically if anyone shows any kind of enthusiasm I'll record and explain my best effort to solve any technical problem that is bothering anyone.

For example people have been asking about evenness and string crossing. The one bar clave example above involves a lot of string crossing and the second half of the excercise demands that the opposite finger takes the same rhythms. Kind of like a bilater drumming excercise.

D.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 19 2008 22:50:22

HemeolaMan

Posts: 1514
Joined: Jul. 13 2007
From: Chicago

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Thats funny, because when I learn a classical piece, i always have tons of ideas on improvisation from it.

what's more, it's usually style/period appropriate

classical musicians used to improvise, AAAAND follow all the voice leading conventions lol

maybe its just how we approach the material differently?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2008 3:20:51

guitarbuddha

Posts: 2970
Joined: Jan. 4 2007

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to HemeolaMan)

Hemeola, that is the whole point of what Greeny and I are discussing. Practice approaches which help deliver improvisational options and a techniqe that is more flexable.

For example now I will learn a classical or bossa piece.

1. Tune only, then bass only, chords only.
2. Tune +bass
3. Harmony +bass
4. Tune plus highest line of harmony, then mid and low.
5. Complete arrangement
6. Full arrangement but with simplified rhythm in accompaniment.
7. Same arrangement (fingerings) but with a different tune which falls easily on instrument.
8. Build up this whole texture from scratch by ear on a new tune (steps one througn seven).

Here is an excercise which gets the right hand 'dancing' and makes this process easier when working on a piece.
What is important ,imho, is that arrangements are simplified so that the technique is ready to play sparsely because full arrangements are extremely tiring and often an arrangement with different textural densities is much more musical and interesting to a listener.
Believe me, improvising a piece in a nineteenth century style with alberty bass and the melody of your choice is much much much easier after tackling something like this.

If you can do this now then hats off to you.

D.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 20 2008 4:31:08

greeny

Posts: 50
Joined: Feb. 26 2008

RE: Pulgar revisited (in reply to guitarbuddha)

Wow folks!

What a thread! My naivity has raised up a storm - I should go and crawl back under the stone I've been living... but I won't - this is all too interesting. Thanks to all of you!

There is so much material contained here in the few postings you sent in, I shall need some serious time to digest most of it - I can't comment in any meaningful way on some of the technicalities but I do try to follow all the points you've raised so far. Funny to see how pointing in one direction can lead to another!

Ricardo, yes I need to do much research in "rasgueos" and their many many variaties. Nunez has some pretty (hard) exercices in his book but basically it seems to me one needs to put them to practical use in actual pieces of music, I guess.... groovin' hard!

Guitarbuddha, if you could indulge in continuing your serie of "workshops" I could most enjoy any types of exercices for the development of the pulgar... you had mentioned something like that. But that which you gave already is plentiful for now, believe me!

Indeed, Ricardo was right about my missing the point (totally!) the things about 3 3 2, and the pulgar, and the fingers, etc... but I did learn a great many things and that's always a good thing.

Thanks for your dedication and enthusiasm.

G.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Mar. 21 2008 7:21:43