Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido

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edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido

I have a 20year old Manuel Bellido blanca, and I believe the top has lifted over the years.
As you can see from the pix, the bridge seems to be slightly off from the perpendicular.
The 6th string is 11mm above the top near the soundhole and 9mm above the top at the bridge. As viewed from the bottom up, there's a definite transversal arch.

Tuning is o.k., fingerboard action is a bit low ( 2.5mm at 12th fret), so she's rather buzzy.

Do you think this can be corrected?
Is it worth the effort?

I'd appreciate your comments

Ed

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Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2008 7:23:01

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

I am not a builder, but it looks like the normal "arch" we have been discussing in other threads, that is caused deliberately by the use of the SOLERA, or mold. Pretty much every guitar has those warpings in verying degrees, and IMO this action set up and curvature in the pics is all totally normal. My favorite guitars have about the same action or slightly higher, but with lower bridge, but I would not say this set up you have is "bad".

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2008 9:56:18

Pgh_flamenco

Posts: 1506
Joined: Dec. 5 2007
From: Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

There has been some talk on the Foro recently about this topic and I’ve wondered about this for some time, too. The Alhambra I own has a similarly "domed" top and variation in string height to the soundboard between the bridge and the neck that you describe. Without the dome--or solera—the top would be flat. From what I’ve read a flat top is not capable of surviving the long term stresses placed on the wood from changes in temperature and humidity and will eventually warp or crack. There is no need to repair your guitar.

I would like to know the optimum height differences from the solera to the fret board—parallel to the strings; and also in the direction parallel to the bridge that builders use when making a guitar. Could any of the builders share this information?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2008 10:27:28

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

Wow, you have got a sharp break angle compared to my Raimundo 145 from ano 1999. I am just catching on to this stuff, so don't assume that means anything bad! Mine is shallower, and if I want to lower the action of my guitar it will be shallower still.

I bet your guitar projects a lot of volume! That break angle may be the reason you also have a higher arch then my guitar also.

Sorry to hijack your threard, but Is it possible to modify my Raimundo to get a similar break and also lower my action at the same time? It would mean filling the slot and cutting a new one closer to the string tie part... your slot is definetly closer to the tie part than mine by a couple of millimeters. If I did that would that mean more volume? Or would I risk breaking my top?

Actually, I wonder if it would also cause my top to bulge up negating the attempt to lower my action and be at the same place I was before... but with more volume!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2008 16:54:07

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Wow, you have got a sharp break angle compared to my Raimundo 145 from ano 1999. I am just catching on to this stuff, so don't assume that means anything bad! Mine is shallower, and if I want to lower the action of my guitar it will be shallower still.

I bet your guitar projects a lot of volume! That break angle may be the reason you also have a higher arch then my guitar also.

Sorry to hijack your threard, but Is it possible to modify my Raimundo to get a similar break and also lower my action at the same time?

Hey, I have played and seen a lot of guitars, and I would say the break angle itself is not making a HUGE difference in sound volume. My louder guitars actually have a very shallow break angle. Some guitars have a low bridge but normal action. I have seen guitars VERY STEEP with the angle, but if they have a low buzzy action, they dont' project good volume. So the action is more the thing than the break angle.

The thing to worry about is if you have NO more break angle left, you CAN"T lower the action. And that is not good if you don't have a low buzzy action already. If you want to or need to go lower, then yeah you must fill the holes and have them re drilled and lower angle. A student of mine had this done to his guitar with EXCELLENT results.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2008 17:13:26

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

Hi Ed

Good photos. Explain a lot.

I understand you worries. Your guitar has a high dome and IMO its a bitmore warped than what is good, but at the same time, it can still be used. Its not a dead guitar.

A reason could be that the guitar is to lightly constructed. I´ve tested a lot of M. Bellido flamenco guitars and they tend to be a bit underbuilt. with a very lyrical sound, strong basses and trebles which are singy but not so strong.

Reparation could be done, but it would be very costy and would completely change the sound and character of the instrument. Most probably it would be nescessary to take of the bottom and strengthen the braces, eventually change the 3 center ones. The good thing about this is that it would then be possible to reset the neck a little bit, because it sounds to me that the neck angle is not to good. With a top that is raised that much, 9mm at the bridge and 2,5 at 12th fret sounds to me that the guitar is to "flat" and should have had some more neck angle.
Thats a bit strange, because normally M. Bellido builds with a lot of neck angle.

Do you know how many braces your guitar have? 5 or 7?

Anders

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Jan. 31 2008 21:37:58

RobJe

Posts: 731
Joined: Dec. 16 2006
From: UK

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

Hi Ed

I guess we are all getting our straight edges out and measuring!

I have two Manuel Bellido blancas - 90 and 96. They both have simlar domes on the tops to the one in you picture - perhaps just a little bit less. However they both play very well.

In connection with Ander's comments, I think he is right about the flat neck angle - this could be a bit of a problem. He asks you about the number of struts and Manuel has experimeneted with all kinds of stuff. My 90 blanca has a lightweight version of Fleta strutting - 9 fan struts, double inclined bars near the soundhole and a thin strut under the bridge running right across the face. This is a pretty stiff top (mechanically if you press it) but it still has the dome. The 96 has only 5 struts and nothing under the bridge - same dome! Amazingly Manuel has managed to get his same characteristic sound and feel out of both of them.

It sounds pretty drastic to take the back off and play around (and expensive). I don't know whether it would be possible to tackle the low neck angle with mods to the fingerboard - or a new one. Perhaps someone could comment.

Rob

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2008 6:26:50

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to Ricardo)

Man this foro is buggy. I don't know how many times I compose a message to only find out I have been somehow disconnected and my post and work is lost. I need to get used to saving them before I hit OK.

Anyways, thanks Ricardo. Re Buzzy, is the idea you want to get as close to buzzy as possible without impacting your single note playing?

Re the doming of the guitar:

I figure if you change your break angle, you can reduce the upward load on the face of the guitar by about 30% - that may help reduce the doming. At least with my quick hand-sketch graphical estimate, too lazy to do the math right now.

Scratch the upward load part - I was wrong. What I meant was the torque on the face of the guitar. The forces on the bridge due to the string break angle need to be countered with a torque that in effect tries to pull up on the rear and push down on the front of the bridge. That probably won't effect the dome much, but might reduce it a little?

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2008 6:50:57

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

Man this foro is buggy. I don't know how many times I compose a message to only find out I have been somehow disconnected and my post and work is lost. I need to get used to saving them before I hit OK.

Me to. Its really annoying.

Rob is right in saying that if the guitar plays well, it plays well. never mind the dome etc. So if you like the way it plays, enjoy it. Another thing is the action.
The flat neckangle means high break angle and this doesnt help a guitar with a high dome and if you raise the action a bit, you´ll get a higher breakangle.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 1 2008 21:14:52

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

Hi all,
great comments!

Anders1: 5 (very lightweight) braces

cathulu: Re buzzing - that exactly is the problem. Single note buzz.
Re torque - isnt it the other way 'round? High breakangle puts more pressure on the front of the bridge, pushing it down and lifting the rear. So you'd want it to be countered by pushing down on the rear and lifting the front. (?)

Anders2: Yeah, a slight (!) raise in action would be pleasant, but I'm afraid of putting more pressure on the top ...

Ed

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2008 5:25:21

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

Ed

How thick is the fingerboard and does it have the same thickness at the nut and at the 12th fret?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2008 6:35:58

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

Anders

6mm all the way

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Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 2 2008 9:09:48

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

My impression is that the top has "sunk" between bridge and soundhole/fingerboard and arched between bridge and endblock. This would be in accordance with the ideas about torque and could explain why there's arching one the one hand and lowered action on the other

Here's a sketch to demonstrate what I mean (hopefully)

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2008 4:38:42

Anders Eliasson

Posts: 5780
Joined: Oct. 18 2006

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

I like that sketch, and you are right, thats what happens, but only on very lightly built guitars. A lot of the M Bellidos I´ve tried have very thin soundboards. To thin IMHO. Its normal that guitars have a bit of warp. If not they are normally to stif ti play, but yours is a bit on the rough side. But again if it plays well and you like it, its a good guitar.

The 6mm fingerboard gives you a chance of changing things. You can have the fingerboard shaved and refretted.
If you do 5mm all the way, you can lower the action 1mm and if you do 6mm at the nut and 5mmat the 12th. fret, you can lower the action around 2mm.

Its not to expensive. Some 120 - 200 euros in Spain. In Germany... Dont know.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2008 4:58:48

cathulu

Posts: 950
Joined: Dec. 15 2006
From: Vancouver, Canukistan

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

That is exactly what I was thinking. Have you tried the obvious, changing string tension?

When does it buzz - only with the Capo? Does moving the position of the Capo change the buzz? Would a couple of sheets of paper under the nut help?

Sorry, didn't see Anders post. That seems the best approach.

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2008 5:00:15

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

Anders2: Yeah, a slight (!) raise in action would be pleasant, but I'm afraid of putting more pressure on the top ...

quote:

The 6mm fingerboard gives you a chance of changing things. You can have the fingerboard shaved and refretted.
If you do 5mm all the way, you can lower the action 1mm and if you do 6mm at the nut and 5mmat the 12th. fret, you can lower the action around 2mm.

Since he wants to raise the action wouldn't it be better, he either shaved more, or, shaved and left it as is?

Again, that exaggerated drawing showing warping, that is not how the guitar looks in the pics to me. It looks rather normal, arch from the solera the orginal design and set up. Maybe the guitar is a bit dry. How about add some humidity and see how things change? If the action is too low, try harder tension strings or a different brand, BEFORE you go shaving the ebony board!

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2008 20:01:08

Escribano

Posts: 6415
Joined: Jul. 6 2003
From: England, living in Italy

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to cathulu)

quote:

Man this foro is buggy. I don't know how many times I compose a message to only find out I have been somehow disconnected and my post and work is lost. I need to get used to saving them before I hit OK.

Yeah, I think I know why. To save costs and provide a large database and storage, one server is in my house in Spain linked via WiMax microwave and it is unreliable. I am moving it to the States over time. Apologies.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2008 21:43:15

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

cathulu, Ricardo,

yes of course I've tried the obvious.

Higher tension didn't do much, but thinner gauge did help a bit. I'm now using Savarez Corum Alliance 500 (normal tension trebles, high tension bass).
I haven't tried augmenting the humidity yet (52% here)...
Yes, of course my drawing is exaggerated. It's supposed to be.

I think that in the long run, Anders' idea is probably the best.
Do you think that's work any decent luthier could do (i.e. with mainly classic guitar experience)?
Or should I wait, and take in the guitar to Jesus Bellido when I'm in Granada this fall?

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 3 2008 22:12:58

Anders Eliasson

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RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

Since he wants to raise the action wouldn't it be better, he either shaved more, or, shaved and left it as is?

Ricardo, I dont understand...

Ed. Any good luthier can do this. If they dont understand flamenco guitars, You´ll have to explain what you want.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 4 2008 21:16:22

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to Anders Eliasson)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anders Eliasson

quote:

Since he wants to raise the action wouldn't it be better, he either shaved more, or, shaved and left it as is?

Ricardo, I dont understand...

Ed. Any good luthier can do this. If they dont understand flamenco guitars, You´ll have to explain what you want.

Sorry. I mean, what you described sounds like a way to maintain the action he has now over the fingerboard, while being able to lower the bone. Sounded like his action over the board was too low. If he shaved the ebony board down and refretted, he would be in effect "raising" the action. But then to lower the bone would be back to where he was before? So all I was saying is that if he wants a cleaner sound, he COULD shave the fingerboard, but then not lower the bone, or if the idea is to lower the bone AND raise the action over the fingerboard, he might have to have less than 5mm of ebony, meaning shave more then you suggested. Make sense?

Also, if the ebony gets shaved un evenly, like more at the 12th fret as you meantioned, won't the intonation get messed up? Or does that get worked out when the new frets go in?

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2008 2:51:13

Ricardo

Posts: 14822
Joined: Dec. 14 2004
From: Washington DC

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

cathulu, Ricardo,
yes of course I've tried the obvious.
Higher tension didn't do much, but thinner gauge did help a bit. I'm now using Savarez Corum Alliance 500 (normal tension trebles, high tension bass).
I haven't tried augmenting the humidity yet (52% here)...
Yes, of course my drawing is exaggerated. It's supposed to be.

I think that in the long run, Anders' idea is probably the best.
Do you think that's work any decent luthier could do (i.e. with mainly classic guitar experience)?
Or should I wait, and take in the guitar to Jesus Bellido when I'm in Granada this fall?

Hard tension did not remove buzzing problem? Hmm. How about try a small shim under the bone. That should stop the buzzing, if you dont' mind the bone a little higher. I mean that whole shaving the ebony board is a big deal job to me, and irreversable you know. It will raise the action and make room for you to adjust the bone yeah, but again I dont' see your guitar as in such deplorable condition to warrent that type of job...but that is just me.

Ricardo

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2008 3:03:00

edguerin

Posts: 1589
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From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

Original message lost. Bugs galore ....

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Alemania

REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2008 4:47:21

edguerin

Posts: 1589
Joined: Dec. 24 2007
From: Siegburg, Alemania

RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

So here goes again (hopfully)

Ricardo
I agree, irreversible tweaking sounds a bit scary ...

But then again, putting a shim under the saddle will accentuate the break-angle, putting even more pressure on the soundboard

And there really is that "sideways S" form, like in my drawing.
If you look at the 3rd picture from the top closely, you can see there's a space between the soundboard and the straightedge, which is resting on the soundboard (not the fingerboard)...

Ed

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2008 4:52:49

jshelton5040

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RE: Warped top 20y old Manuel Bellido (in reply to edguerin)

quote:

ORIGINAL: edguerin

Ricardo
I agree, irreversible tweaking sounds a bit scary ...

Ed

Ander's solution is the correct one. Taper the fingerboard from the nut to the sound hole. This allows you to lower the saddle without lowering the action thereby ameliorating the twisting action of the bridge on the top. Who says it can't be reversed? All you have to do is laminate another piece of ebony over the existing fingerboard. I've done it several times. If you've been playing this guitar for 20 years it's probably ready for a fret job anyway. The fingerboard shaving doesn't add a lot to the price of a fret job.

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REPORT THIS POST AS INAPPROPRIATE | Date Feb. 5 2008 5:36:15